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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Some Cautionary Thoughts on the Present Revival by Art Katz

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 a lil late to the party

But I was reading thru this post, because I admire dear Art, and this was the first time, I felt.......slightly dismayed, and let me tell you why.

Not because I think it's God-honoring to get "drunk in the Spirit", or to bark like a dog, laugh like a hyena, etc etc etc. But when I was reading Art's thesis, several thoughts came to my mind:

1. 2nd Samuel chapter 6 and the spirit of Michal as she was watching King David worshipping like there is NO TOMMORROW. (remember Art is just a man, not some demi-god)She despised him for his exuberant worship.

I understand fully what Art is saying.

second thing that occured to me:

2. He never mentioned the Fire spreading, he never brought up the Azusa revival that was linked in prayer with the Welsh revival. Evan Roberts was praying for the revival to spread to Los Angeles and it did. I know a lot of folks view(viewed) the Azusa revival of 1906 as counterfeit...........500 million Pentecostal believers later


3. something about that last paragraph just BOTHERED me. I'm a Jew, I was raised a Jew, sent to religious school, etc. and I see this sometimes out of messianic Jewish teachers, it's an almost reflexive desire to go back to the headspace of having to do certain things to warrant or secure God's favor:
quote:
[Who had them wear the golden head plate continually on their foreheads (the very place now we so readily make available for the touch that brings the 'blessing') 'Holiness unto the Lord'?


I KNOW what he's saying, but there's something about it that bothers me. I can't elucidate it .....but I'll meditate and pray on it.

Great topic Greg.

 2004/10/8 19:55
lwpray
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Joined: 2003/6/22
Posts: 3318
Sweden

 Re: a lil late to the party


Katz:
"I would insert here a caution given by T. Austin Sparks, more appropriate now perhaps then when it was sounded decades ago, in speaking of the Corinthians’ propensity for ‘sensational evidences’. How much does it suggest that we may presently be reaping is what was mindlessly and carelessly sown in the decades of the Charismatic Movement. The immaturity of many was fostered in easy ‘decisions’, Cross-avoiding indolence, undisciplined living, the giddy adulation of personalities and in the superficiality, levity and lightness of our meetings."


The systematic doing away with the priesthood, and its priestliness, its godliness, its service unto God; the constantly repeated statement in music, in message, in merchandising the anointing, in manipulating through affirmation that God is present to serve according to our purposes and whimsical wishes should produce a state of permanent conviction unto personal repentance and corporate anguish.
Lars W.


_________________
Lars Widerberg

 2004/10/9 3:05Profile









 Here's what's bothering me.

and I believe it has been distilled in your post.

The curtain was torn in two. All now can be priests unto the Lord. There is no distinction between lay and priest.

However there seems to me to be a certain breast beating going on;(not by you, thats not my implication, dear brother) a certain point of pride,'look how holy I am, look at my tears, look at my hair shirt, my seriousness, I don't laugh, I'm not 'immature', I don't indulge in whimsy, in false manifestations, I'm super-apostle'.

now of course, this would never be spoken by voice, it's just the spirit that which such judgements are laid out.

Schma, dear Lars, I am not of the Toronto "school", or Pensecola, I do not get drunk in the Spirit, or do holy cartwheels, and I view that kind of stuff as........WHO CARES WHAT I THINK!!!

What does the Lord Jesus Christ think?

"Master, said John, we saw a man driving out demons in Your Name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.

Do not stop him, Jesus said, for whoever is not against you is for you."

Luke 9:49-50


Is that whole thing kind of flaky?

Yes!

But does it bring souls into the Kingdom?

Yes and THANK GOD!!

You know what else this whole thing reminds me of?

in the 21st chapter of John, when our Dear Lord is reinstating Peter, asks him twice (in the Greek) do you agape love mePeter?, and Peter responds with the phileto (brotherly) love You Lord, then Jesus asks in the third time, do you phileto love me Peter? and Peter responds, you know I phileto love you Lord.

Peter HAD learned, we do what we can, we give to the Lord what we are able to in our flawedness, in our brokeness, in our innate sinfulness, we give Him what we can, and not everybody is a Hudson Taylor, or a David Brainerd, or a John Sung, OR an Art Katz, they bring to Him what they can, in childlike faith and trust. THAT is the "priest" of the New Covenant, a simple child.

 2004/10/9 14:29
Joshua99
Member



Joined: 2005/5/19
Posts: 118
Austin Tx.

 Re: Here's what's bothering me.

Quote:
Peter HAD learned, we do what we can, we give to the Lord what we are able to in our flawedness, in our brokeness, in our innate sinfulness, we give Him what we can, and not everybody is a Hudson Taylor, or a David Brainerd, or a John Sung, OR an Art Katz, they bring to Him what they can, in childlike faith and trust. THAT is the "priest" of the New Covenant, a simple child.



If I may embark in this touchy topic. There is a major difference between a child in the lord, who prays and the one who responds to the call to sonship, thereby enabled by the Spirit, to minister in the priesthood after the order of Melchizedek. This is speaking of the higher priesthood not the Levitical priesthood established in the old covenant.
The other area you said “we do what we can, we give to the Lord what we are able to in our flawedness, in our brokeness, in our innate sinfulness, we give Him what we can.” The reason we would say this is because we have yet to come into His Rest, Where it is Christ living through us, fulfilling His will and not our carnal, fleshly nature trying to please God, doing our best with flawed abilities. I know you believe God excepts that, but unless we are living by the Faith of the Son of God, and we are dying to our self-life or flesh everything we do will be unexceptable to Him. I know I will be railed on this by some, but that is ok, I have learned by the Spirit of God how to enter into His rest and now overcoming the sins of my flesh, day by day fulfilling what 2 Cor 7:1 says

2Cor 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, perfecting holiness, in the fear of God.

I stand with Greg and Mike, in what they spoke on this post and I stand with Art Katz in clarifying light from darkness in the confusion happening in the Church today.


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Bryan

 2005/8/23 23:46Profile
baruch_48
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Joined: 2005/5/31
Posts: 78


 Re:

Quote:
All now can be priests unto the Lord. There is no distinction between lay and priest.



Hi Neilgin, Katz is calling believers to a true living out of their walk "as priests" ... most Christians can mouth that they are part of the priesthood of believers, but aren't pressing in deeper, that that would become an effectual Reality in them ( and through them )

I get your sense of wonderment at the thing about the headplate on the priestly forehead. I used to revulse at these types of Old Testament pictures, where we as New Testament believers may seem to be trying to "do things to secure God's approval", as you said. ( and not resting in the power of the Lord's grace, the finished work at the Cross & resurrection power )

But now I don't see pictures like that as "slavishly trying" to appease God. I can't relate to your Jewish upbringing, where that may have been the case - 'doing religious works.'

Probably it's true that most Christian Gentiles have had it far worse than the average modern Jew, in terms of mandated 'religious observances', at least bible-believing Christian Gentiles.

Myself, I had a lax upbringing, but was taught against slavish, legalistic self-efforts - from my new-birth experience ... so I've always had a revulsion against pictures like these weird 'priestly' things of the Old Testament.

But the Lord can take us higher in our calling, once our Grace-foundation is secure, and not see these pictures as threatening to our resting in that Grace that saved us.

Rather, these pictures point us the way to "press on to take hold of .. " ( that which we were taken hold of for ).

It reminds me of the Hebrews statement - "by constant use .. have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil" [ 5:14]

Much to do with distinguishing good from evil is present in Katz's writing on revival-ism.

I'm sure that's what the gold head-plate had to do with, in part ... a renewed mind - the very mind of Christ , our High Priest

baruch

 2005/8/27 2:05Profile
Eliel
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Joined: 2005/12/13
Posts: 15
Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

 Re:

[i]Is that whole thing kind of flaky?

Yes!

But does it bring souls into the Kingdom?

Yes and THANK GOD!![/i]

By what authority do you claim this? Salvation is more than saying a 2 minute prayer, and if that is all you've got to go on, then you're out of evidence.

Yes, I know the "If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart" verse, but if what they are accepting and believing is not really Christ in all his glory, but a gharish deception, than there is little basis to claim souls are being won, and thus little evidence that this "revival" is positive. In fact, if they are accepting a false gospel, I would say that it is more DAMAGING than anything else.

We are called in these, the end times, to exercise discernment, and if anything does not measure up to Christ, to flee from it, and warn others.

Personal, I discredit this supposed revival because I do not see a follow through into church attendance, spiritual health nor peoples personal lives.

Not that I claim to be an authority on these matters, but something just doesn't sit right with me about this latest revival. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but in that case I will delight in having a plethora of new co-workers to continue the Lord's work with!


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Matthew Peterson

 2005/12/14 6:01Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

Eliel wrote:
By what authority do you claim this? Salvation is more than saying a 2 minute prayer, and if that is all you've got to go on, then you're out of evidence.

Yes, I know the "If you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart" verse, but if what they are accepting and believing is not really Christ in all his glory, but a gharish deception, than there is little basis to claim souls are being won, and thus little evidence that this "revival" is positive. In fact, if they are accepting a false gospel, I would say that it is more DAMAGING than anything else.



Matt,

The verse you quoted out of Rom 10 has an ending "..if thou shalt confess with thy mouth [b]the Lord Jesus[/b] and believe in thine heart that [b]God hath raised him from the dead[/b] thou shalt be saved."

To quote A.W Tozer "You aren't saved by believing on Jesus, you're saved by believing on the [b]Lord Jesus[/b]."

Glad to see your enjoying yourself here.

Your's in Him.


_________________
Aaron Ireland

 2006/1/19 7:33Profile
Nellie
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Joined: 2004/4/5
Posts: 952


 Re: Some Cautionary Thoughts on the Present Revival by Art Katz

Greg,
Is this the whole article by Art Katz?
Please don't stop posting what you feel like the Body of Christ needs, as far as the Word of God.
We are not in Revival, for Repentance brings Revival.
I haven't seen Repentenance, and I'm talking about my own life, as well as the Church.

I want to grow in Love and Knowledge, and Wisdom of My Lord, and also want to be led where He would have me to go.

Revival isn't loud noises and laughter.
I have been in Church Services like this

I know every one doesn't Worship God the same, but we do need to stay with the Holy Scriptures.

That I may know Thee, the only True God, and Jesus Christ whom Thou hast sent.
God Bless
Nellie

 2006/1/19 10:06Profile
FireinmyBones1
Member



Joined: 2004/1/17
Posts: 219
Michigan

 Re:

QUOTE:
Personal, I discredit this supposed revival because I do not see a follow through into church attendance, spiritual health nor peoples personal lives.

I am a life who has been transformed from a depressed, sin loving, pastors son into a child of God - there is indeed fruit my brother. I am now working as a youth pastor and we are seeing God do incredible things in our midst. One of my most faithful and on fire students is a young mas who last year at this time was deep into witchcraft. He was not simply interested he was submerged in it. He was touched by the fire of what is being called in this thread "the present revival" and his life is completely changed. We must be careful when saying that there is no fruit. If you look at the state of Wales today it would be hard to know that there was ever a revival there in 1904 - but the effects of this revival were felt around the entire world! The old 312 Azusa Street mission does not even exist anymore and certainly Los Angeles is not known as a "city of refuge" yet the movement that was birthed during that great revival in 1906 has changed the face of the entire church. The Pentecostal church is now more than 650,000 strong and is arguably the most aggressive evangelistic and missionary movmement in all of church history. (this claim bears out statistically) Sometimes we may not see a huge dramatic change in the precise locality of the revival and we claim that it could not have been the real thing. This most often comes from our glamourized picture of revival painted for us by many dear and sincere bretheren. They claim that if the entire city was not transformed from top to bottom it was not the real thing.
Certainly in revival there will be a dramatic change in the community. Would we claim Pentecost was not genuine? Surely there was a great harvest as well as a great shaking - yet the city was still destroyed by the Romans in 70 AD - obviosly there was not a city wide transformation although genuine revival came! (I am not saying we should not pursue this - God forbid) I am simply stating that this cannot be the litmus test whereby we decide whether it is really "God or not". S
Sometimes those who come to see the revival are touched and transformed and then carry this back with them to their city, church, country, school - and the effects are being felt all over. I believe this present revival was more along these lines. If you were to erase this revival from the history books many great present movements and leaders would not exist.
I know for myself, as well as many others I know - I would still be on my way to hell.
Burning,
Jeff


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Jeff

 2006/1/19 12:46Profile
suzy
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Joined: 2005/12/11
Posts: 69
Devon, England

 Re:

Thank you for placing that article of Art Katz. I am always pleased to hear of or read anything by someone alive today who is willing to go against the tide and stand for righteousness and holiness. I found my way onto this SermonIndex site via Art Katz web site, and have been very challenged each time I have listened to his messages. Art Katz is a man who has a very relevant essential message for this hour, that's why people oppose it or pick holes in it.

How can we call revival what we have in the States and in the UK? The prayer meeting left the weekly church agenda years ago; it is many a year since I heard someone talk about, let alone fast. I regard many services as a waste of my time and refuse to go; (especially when they have special visitors); I can spend my time better. To those who call this a genuine revival, what do you call what is going on in China? - prayer, fasting, crying, evangelising, martyrdom?

This is a quote from an emailed article I received before Christmas taken from an interview with a Chinese pastor:

"How do the Chinese Christian's evaluate American Christianity?

They feel like the church in the West is playing games. They are troubled with all the LAUGHTER in the meetings. They are broken and weeping in their assemblies, and Americans are telling
jokes. ... They feel we are bound by traditions and programs and therefore cannot follow the Holy Spirit's leadings. We have to make sure we have that direct line to the Holy Spirit and seek to hear His voice. We can never over-emphasize the difference between the followers of Jesus in the West and in China. These followers in China hear their Master's voice, and they follow Him. This is actually a very simple theology. The Christians in the West have been able to eliminate Christ and His direct presence in their midst. ... I feel ..the whole Christianity in the West could be going for years before they discover that Jesus has not been with them for a long time. He has gone somewhere else. He is not with them anymore."

I believe this brother is right. How do we get Him back - repentance, prayer, fasting until we get an answer. This is hard work which few want to do. Following Christ has a price - we need to pay the price.

Sue

PS Praise God that Art Katz's health is better.


_________________
Sue

 2006/1/20 12:33Profile





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