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 Some Cautionary Thoughts on the Present Revival by Art Katz


[b]Some Cautionary Thoughts on the Present Revival[/b]
[i]by Art Katz[/i]

I would appreciate your sympathy as I try to address a subject that is already dividing many of God's people into defensive and opposing camps. One is put into the uncomfortable, if not dangerous, even in raising elementary cautions, of seeming to oppose to what in the eyes of many is holy and of the Spirit of God. Precious and mature saints of our own knowledge testify to the indisputable blessing they are assured that they have received. Far be it from us to dispute or denigrate what is from God. Nevertheless, in fidelity to our own call and responsibility before the Lord and to His people, and after much reflection, prayer and discussion amongst ourselves, we offer the following for your thoughtful and prayerful consideration.

I venture out with some trepidation to raise some questions about a phenomenon that is already perplexing many. Unlike such previous moves of God as the Welsh Revival, noted from its inception for its unmistakably holy character, the present revival generates mixed reports from unequivocal enthusiasm to those that are dubious, critical, and utterly rejecting. Some suggest more than one stream with a fleshly counterfeit paralleling the God-given and authentic. What I have been able to observe via video tape of one principal, and evidently original stream, I found entirely repugnant. Ministers of the word were ostensibly so drunk in the spirit that they were unable to be coherent, railing finally into a collapse from their stupor. I found this entirely unbecoming to the dignity of their professed call and felt the preached word to he denigrated by joking references to the feeble results obtained by it in comparison to the effects procured now by the experiences of the 'power' to which they were testifying. Was it my imagination that made me sense in watching some helplessly convulsing in laughter, that what had gripped them was already panically beyond their control and was actually causing them a physical pain? It is a moot question if one would describe it as 'holy'. On the contrary, it appears to be irreverent if not indeed demonic and hellish.

From identical meetings others report unmistakable benefit, instant release from depression and other dogged personality disorders and disabilities upon receiving 'the blessing'. We are not in a position to categorically condemn as deception the ostensible benefits to which many testify. God is always free to bless whom He will bless. But our point is that if the enemy can succeed in bringing the Church to viewing benefit as the determinant by which something is judged to be of God, we may well have been brought to the very ground of deception itself.

For myself, I would choose to keep my distance from such phenomena, trusting that whatever I might be missing is not greater than what I am protecting and cherishing and that the Lord is not offended by a carefulness that would rather err in a jealousy for His holiness than to risk subverting what has already been given as pure and true (the residue of the knowledge of God as holy, obtained through obedience and communion, cherished and guarded over the years). What believer who has once been in that Presence could ever countenance the entertainment-carnival atmosphere that prevailed in the video cited above? I have not yet recovered, and trust never will, from the eerie experience some twenty years ago of being present on the platform at an international conference in the midst of falling bodies (ostensibly 'slain in the Spirit') in the complete absence of the sense of God's presence! The visible demonstration of power without the corresponding sense of God in the midst of squeals of carnal excitement and popping flashbulbs was more than could be borne. Whatever the consequence to propriety, ministerial and offended relationships, I had to leave.

Remarkable that though we are explicitly warned about end-time "lying signs and wonders", (II Thessalonians 2:9; Matthew 24:24) we imagine that it is future and mindlessly trust ourselves in our greed for experiences, empowerments, or releases to dubious personalities who have caught the public fancy in incredible overnight popularity. I profoundly respect God's use of the weak and the foolish thing, but I cannot for that reason endorse what is garish, cheap, and coarse as being that. "Holiness unto the Lord" is still the standard of God's House even when it is unspectacular and unassuming in the eyes of the world—or even our own.

Certainly in all of the overwhelming endorsement of the present revival-renewal phenomenon, the sober believer will not fault this modest, hopefully redemptive voice of caution. Perhaps one of the most ominous features of the hour is the note of warning sounded about those who have some reserve as being 'obstructions', 'enemies', or 'threats' to this outpouring of God. The invitation seems to be to abandon all restraint ('The bar is open')—leap in or get out of the way of others if you cannot! God is well able, I feel sure, to protect as well as perfect what pertains unto Him (Colossians 1:28). I cannot help but wonder if it is man's interests that are being so vehemently defended and that we are at the inception of what could ultimately be finalized by the warning that "they will kill you and claim that they are doing God a service." (John 16:2)

I would insert here a caution given by T. Austin Sparks, more appropriate now perhaps then when it was sounded decades ago, in speaking of the Corinthians' propensity for 'sensational evidences'. How much does it suggest that we may presently be reaping is what was mindlessly and carelessly sown in the decades of the Charismatic Movement. The immaturity of many was fostered in easy 'decisions', Cross-avoiding indolence, undisciplined living, the giddy adulation of personalities and in the superficiality, levity and lightness of our meetings.

We are in that kind of age today. It is becoming more and more a psychic age. It is an age of the soul just spilling over, asserting itself, taking control of everything in Christianity as well as outside of it—a soulish age... Be careful that you are not hankering for this realm again. Are you after the evidence? My, how I have seen dear Christian people just prostrating themselves, groaning and crying, almost screaming for evidence—these 'sign' things... Christians and dear men of God, who have been greatly used, are creating an emotional, psychic situation that is involving simple Christians in things which are, sooner or later, going to be a great disillusionment and an offense. It will bring 'offendedness' with the Lord, and that is just what the devil is after. (Called Unto the Fellowship of His Son, p. 46, published by Emmanuel Church, 12000 E.14th St., Tulsa, OK 74128)

Personally, I believe myself to be ready to risk all and to dare all for the Lord, but certainly not for a 'blessing' or dubious 'experience' that confers some seeming good. My own preference, and I believe that of the Scripture, is to seek out the root of depression according to the Word (usually unacknowledged disobediences). This will be accomplished primarily through that part of the Body to whom I am accountable and with whom I am authentically joined. (Ephesians 4:15) When 'experience' as a 'quick-fix' alternative is preferred to these disciplines, we put ourselves in a place of spiritual jeopardy. Is not the Lord near at hand to all who seek Him? What is the enduring benefit when we have merely received some alleviation from the symptoms that were occasioned by serious defects of character and return with these defects still remaining? Whatever the future will reveal of the present revival phenomenon, perhaps the greatest will be the profound repentance of broken thousands upon recognizing their susceptibility to deception, their lack of elementary discernment, and their haste to run after demonstrations of power in atmospheres so contrary to God's known holiness and character.

Clearly, a power is at work. The question is, whose? Who is it that is mediating an alternative and lesser joy to the immature, the carnal, and the undiscerning? We are already discomforted to learn of the loss of interest, even the repudiation of apostolic vision once held by those who have received 'the blessing'—as if the one were somehow antithetical or opposed to the other! Assuming that our fears are exaggerated and that the present phenomenon is of God, though admittedly marred only by certain excesses, in what ways will future 'lying signs and wonders' be different from that with which we are presently being confronted? By what criteria will these differences be identified? Are we presently at the level of maturity and discernment by which these important distinctions can be made? By what means shall we come to that place if we are now prone to describe as 'enemies' those who are only raising the questions? The very ridicule and censure brought by the advocates of this revival to those who attempt to do so makes suspect the very claims they espouse. The fact that something eventuates in blessing, release, or deliverance is no sure evidence or guarantee that it is of God. (Matthew 24:24) The same powers of darkness which have wrought the oppressions through careless or unclean living can just as easily relieve them—restoring even relationships broken and made miserable by them—in order to bring about a greater deception!

Even the most rapturous 'love of God' can be a pseudo-sensation produced by spirits in the indiscriminate and slothful who are unwilling for the sacrifices of seeking God's face in truth. Is the 'hunger for God' in fact that, or a hunger for an experience of God that will assure the insecure soul that they are known and accepted of God? Is this not the unrecognized motive that makes many pant after present day prophets in hope of a 'prophetic' word of this kind? Does not this encouraged tendency promote the immaturity of such rather than encourage them in the faith of sons? Do we not prefer to be effortlessly 'acted upon' miraculously—rather than diligently seek God on the basis of the promise of His Word? "And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13)

Are these not the last days in which we have been warned about deception and been exhorted to test all spirits? (I John 4:1; I Thessalonians 5:21) What are our eschatological expectations—the premises of our faith? Surely these views will altogether affect our susceptibilities to every new thing that promises to bless and establish us in this present life and rob us at the same time of the alertness that would and should otherwise be ours. Are we to ignore the prevalence of ear-splitting 'worship', high-powered offerings, calculated theatrics, carnival bawdiness, the chilling hellish shrieks and cries that punctuate the proceedings, the conspicuous absence of the preached word (except perhaps in a token way), the relentless spirit-dulling testimonies in a stupor unbecoming the dignity of God—given incoherently even by ministers of the Word? Not for a moment would such 'phenomena' be tolerated at the historic Welsh Revival where every care was taken to avoid even the use of instrumental music or any intrusion of man—the very things now being celebrated and employed. That revival was holiness unto the Lord so long as those standards were maintained.

Has He changed from being the God who insisted that His priests mount a ramp to the altar rather than ascend by steps lest any flesh be revealed? (Exodus 20:26) Who had them wear the golden head plate continually on their foreheads (the very place now we so readily make available for the touch that brings the 'blessing') 'Holiness unto the Lord'? Who enjoined about the holy anointing oil that nothing shall be made 'like unto that' nor that it shall ever "Upon man's flesh... be poured?" (Exodus 30:32-38) Our ache is that 'Holiness unto the Lord' be ascribed afresh on the foreheads of priestly men and women who will stand for Him in this age of sleaze and vulgarity that even now threatens to seep into the House of God. It is the cry of Isaiah 52:11, "Depart ye, depart ye, go ye out from thence, touch no unclean thing; go ye out of the midst other; be ye clean, that bear the vessels of the Lord"—Indeed, "let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (II Corinthians 7:1). Viewing the world staggering in violence, war, the catastrophes of earthquake, famine, flood, and fire, the Church in its present pitiful state of shallowness and un-preparedness, should we not rather "Be afflicted, and mourn and weep: let[ting] our laughter be turned to mourning, and [our] joy to heaviness?" Forgive us if we are being too cautious. We would be naive to think that deception is only a fear for the carnal and the sensual. Final and last day's deceptions will be spiritual "for Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light". (II Corinthians 11:14) "The end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer." (I Peter 4:7).


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 2004/5/15 20:37Profile
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 Re: Some Cautionary Thoughts on the Present Revival by Art Katz

i want to start off this post by saying i love the heart of the one that wrote it. That heart that says "I hate to see my Lords name disgraced."
I was not going to repsond to another post like this as I do not see the point in going back and forth and I honeslty think that from both positions it's easy to see that we all want the same thing(the ultimate intention of all things is that the Father be glorified and Jesus be lifted up) but I am starting to see on this website a focus or mission seems to be an uncovering of the "present revival" as a flase move of God. A sickening display of flesh driven seeking of the holy spirit for ones own good feelings.
It seems evident to me after searching more thoroughly through the site that this is the prevelant message that appears. It is a message that is primarliy focused on the monstrosities that are taking place in Christianity today.
I would like to take this oportunity to point that although we might not approve of some of the practices that people would use to focus on Jesus.
In my 23 years of dealing with charasmatic movements I can honestly say that a Christ message is a prevalent one. It has been the intention of men to focus on Christ. When i was in Toronto there was a focusing on Christ happening with the phenomenom, when i have been in other meetings where the spirit is moving with so called false teachers there ahs always been a focus on Christ.
My point here is this, we can sit here and speak of how one group of Christians is decieved and that can be our focus or we could talk about things that are more uplifting. We can continue to carry out crusades against each other or we can look to see where the Father is and join Him. All of my time spent in the circles i have, I can not remember spending this much time on how certain groups are more deceived than others. I have actually spent time with some of the false teachers and i was in the ministry school in toronto.
bless you all and may the holy spirit bring you into greater depths of Christ in you the hope of Glory.
Andy


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andrew james

 2004/5/26 13:45Profile
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 Re: Enough already.

Amen Andrew.
I had a cousin who used to play Dungeons & Dragons (incidently, I used to play to and I am strongly against the game, and I know what's wrong with it from personal experience). He is a christian, and used to go online debating the fact that "it was okay for christians to play the game". He finally worked out that it couldn't be good, based on the amount of energy that he'd invested into the debate, time that could be better used.
May i put it to the members of sermonindex that we have discussed the issues of Toronto, Pensacola, modern day apostles/prophets, and the like long enough. Lets get to the task of striving in the spirit for revival to be outpoured on earth. Okay, so we don't see eye to eye....who cares. This will be the last post I wil make on this site striving against others.
I just read again the statement that attracted me to this site:
The mission and purpose of SermonIndex is the preservation and propagation of classic preaching from the past in its audio form for this generation and the next. The underlining theme of the sermons offered is revival, how greatly we need a revival in our generation.
I am taking this opportunity to open a new thread to discuss issues, concerning revival that we can come into agreement. I don't know about you, but I want...NO! I need to see a revival in my land. There are plenty of apologetics and discernment sites out there. Lets return to the original mandate.
Do we realise that the Russian Orthodox Church was discussing changing the color of their robes on the day the communist revolution began. Look out your window christians. What's really going on in the world. You want to talk about righteous indignation? How about "the field is white, but the harvesters are few"? - Selah.
Yours in christ,

Aaron


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Aaron Ireland

 2004/6/5 7:07Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
It seems evident to me after searching more thoroughly through the site that this is the prevelant message that appears. It is a message that is primarliy focused on the monstrosities that are taking place in Christianity today.


Brother James you are right in your observation that there is a desire for the name of God to be glorified and the shameful use of it to be exposed as what it is. I am not into bashing or clearly always stating what is wrong with current christian movements, church, pastors. The main design of this site is to show Christianity as it really is and I believe in contrast that will unviel the guise many are living in calling it 'apostolic christianity'. My heart is not to call division or dissension but to gather people to seek things above, to get so close to Christ that everything that is even tainted with the flesh or with things of this world will be repulsive and considered something to further yourself from immediately.

Quote:
In my 23 years of dealing with charasmatic movements I can honestly say that a Christ message is a prevalent one. It has been the intention of men to focus on Christ. When i was in Toronto there was a focusing on Christ happening with the phenomenom, when i have been in other meetings where the spirit is moving with so called false teachers there ahs always been a focus on Christ.


It is quite sad but this is [b]not[/b] the way to go dear brother. Many would quote that paul rejoiced that the gospel was preached under selfishness or any other means. But there is a standard that we must get back to, we cannot glibly accept everyone with a desire to serve God and glorify His Son and allow them to do this in any way they want to. If you read the bible you will realize there is a standard and to quote the apostle paul in one matter (but I
am sure it was his heart over the whole gospel):

[b]1 Corinthians 11:16[/b] - If anyone wants to be contentious about this, we have no other practice--nor do the churches of God.

we have no other pracitice.. - meaning there is a way to worship God that is proper and instituted by God and people can't just do what they want. There must be order and reverence for God and if you are contentious about this.. that's [b]too[/b] bad is what Paul is saying. Because not just us but all the churches of God have the same rule.

[b]1 Corinthians 14:37-38[/b] - If anybody thinks he is a prophet or spiritually gifted, let him acknowledge that what I am writing to you is the Lord's command. If he ignores this, he himself will be ignored.

Quote:
We can continue to carry out crusades against each other or we can look to see where the Father is and join Him.


I am personally not on a crusade against anyone but on a crusade to seek and aquire the truth of God in Christ and to share it zealously with everyone.

Quote:
May i put it to the members of sermonindex that we have discussed the issues of Toronto, Pensacola, modern day apostles/prophets, and the like long enough. Lets get to the task of striving in the spirit for revival to be outpoured on earth. Okay, so we don't see eye to eye....who cares.


I am sorry dear brother but I do care and for my conscience sake I cannot stop caring about this. What is revival? what spirit? There are many gospels, spirits, let us take heed unless we find ourselves recieving another spirit or believing another gospel in these times of the end.

[b]Galatians 1:6-10[/b] - I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

Let me echo the words of Paul the apostle 'am I trying to please men?' by no means I am serving God and have a love for the truth may God make my intentions and desire obvious.

Quote:
I don't know about you, but I want...NO! I need to see a revival in my land. There are plenty of apologetics and discernment sites out there. Lets return to the original mandate.


Brother Aaron what type of revival? could there be a revival of something that is not true christianity but a counterfeit. I have to sadly say that many when they think, talk, or pray for the word 'revival' are thinking, talking, praying for something foriegn to church history and the scriptures. This is not directly against you I am just offering the idea of thinking about our pre-concieved notions on this word and what it looks like in result.

I would pray that you read the article by art katz again prayerfully, its from a heart seeking after the truth of God:

"Remarkable that though we are explicitly warned about end-time "lying signs and wonders", (II Thessalonians 2:9; Matthew 24:24) we imagine that it is future and mindlessly trust ourselves in our greed for experiences, empowerments, or releases to dubious personalities who have caught the public fancy in incredible overnight popularity. I profoundly respect God's use of the weak and the foolish thing, but I cannot for that reason endorse what is garish, cheap, and coarse as being that. "Holiness unto the Lord" is still the standard of God's House even when it is unspectacular and unassuming in the eyes of the world—or even our own."


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 Re:

I think I was taken back by this comment:

Quote:
but I am starting to see on this website a focus or mission seems to be an uncovering of the "present revival" as a flase move of God. A sickening display of flesh driven seeking of the holy spirit for ones own good feelings.


and
Quote:
It seems evident to me after searching more thoroughly through the site that this is the prevelant message that appears. It is a message that is primarliy focused on the monstrosities that are taking place in Christianity today.



Hmmm, prevelant? Are you serious?
I think you can always find what you are looking for if that is your intention to go seeking after it. Again, I just don't find this to be a witch hunt as it seems to be characterised. Because these issuses are here doesn't neccesitate that 'this site' is geared to taking up arms against these things. But are we then to not bring them out into the open and expose them to the light? Is this really about some 'bent' that is fostered out of selfish motives or that we have somehow become 'holier than though'?
I just don't see it. What is and has continued to be wonderful about this site is the transperency of it's members and the desire to get at the truth of all things that we as the body of Christ long to be. Christ followers. Have said it time and again, it is the heart matters that matter, but if we are not being true there, should we go any further? I think we are full of big hearts around here and that will show in our love and our care for the brethren, which includes sounding a warning when the wolves are about.

I also realise and truely appreciate that by discussing these things we can all learn a lot. I had because of my particular experience gone to extremes after coming out of the whole WOF camp and will admit that I bought into everything I heard from 'the other side' if you will, WITHOUT really following up on it. One of the pleasant surprises I found here was that many of these past men of God that I had thought were 'off limits' to me because of the excess's of the aforementioned extremes of the 'other', were actually great men of God. Smith Wigglesworth being a case in point. The other was that by hearing from some that had been involved in these things and many were first hand, it caused me to realise that not everything is cut and dry.
But that still doesn't validate or make it any easier to not deal with the fact that MANY are decieved and coming from that perspective personally it is easy to get my dander up and I hope it is out of the fact that I hate seeing people decieved period. No agenda but love for the truth and to help people not to go through what I went through which was a number of years of learning and unlearning, confusion and even despair. But I am truely thankful that the Lord allowed it to happen, just for that reason.

I can attest to this personally:
"[i]Whatever the future will reveal of the present revival phenomenon, perhaps the greatest will be the profound repentance of broken thousands upon [b]recognizing their susceptibility to deception, their lack of elementary discernment, and their haste to run after demonstrations of power in atmospheres so contrary to God's known holiness and character.[/b]"[/i]
Because I did and it happened, and yes I still have a long way to go.


I also do see your point in that it can become wearisome and often want to just check out on the whole thing, but isn't it interesting that perhaps that is why we have such a problem that we do? It get's wearisome and then it just becomes a 'let's just move on' and the problem never goes away, it just goes underground again until it pops up it's ugly head once again.

So I don't think it's a case of either/or but the provibial both/and.

I think Art does a fine job in expressing the issues and has touched on this before in other messages with a fair treatment.

I think it grieves us all that these things are taking place and there are many other issues as well. But to characterise this site in this way is unfair and unfounded, you would have to do an awful lot of reading before you could truely form an educated opinion of what is and has been discused here. The topics are far to vast and the discussions has been edifying and personally I have grown and learned so much in the past year, I have been encouraged, rebuked, challeged and hopefully grown while I still die to this flesh and this world and it's devil.

Lastly there is something to be said about "enough of this" and I understand where you guy's are coming from, think Greg would attest to that as well. I know we will move on to other things and I just hope that we don't see the more difficult aspects as something to avoid but to be engaged, not to be devisive but to press into the truth, and to do it with respect for each other and love for each other.

"[i] but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows."[/i]Heb 1:8,9


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Mike Balog

 2004/6/5 17:57Profile
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 Re: Heresy hunters

Brother Andrew,

I have to agree with what Brother Art said and quoted by Brother Mike:

Quote:
"Whatever the future will reveal of the present revival phenomenon, perhaps the greatest will be the profound repentance of broken thousands upon recognizing their susceptibility to deception, their lack of elementary discernment, and their haste to run after demonstrations of power in atmospheres so contrary to God's known holiness and character."



I'm not characterizing anyone other than myself but surely this happened to me, as well. Some of these experiences may be from God, but I believe it's very important for us to do two things: (1) Allow the Holy Spirit to search our hearts to discern our motivation for such things (i.e. great manifestations of God) and (2) Prove all things (I Thess. 5:21) in light of God's eternal word. In other words, how does an experience line up with the word of God.

An improper motivation can lead us astray because we want some greater "experience" of God. Our motives for what we do are extremely important and that can cause us not to closely examine some movement of God or some experience. Jesus said "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also." For me, I wanted an experience to glorify my flesh and I didn't know it until after the fact. How sad is that? It's sad but true and I've since repented. Is this true of other folks? I don't know but it's up to us to allow the Holy Spirit to continuously to examine our hearts and motives.

As to the second thing, that's much more difficult and requires much time in prayer and study. Everything we do as believers must be for the glory of God. Anything short of that will certainly mislead us. We need examine any ministry very carefully to discern whether they are giving God the glory he deserves or whether they're seeking to glorify themselves. That's true of any ministry, as well as each of us.

I don't believe the believers here are purposefully out to dispel any potential moves of God, but to seriously look at them in light of God's word. What a blessing that is my brother. In my view, there was no greater charismatic than Wigglesworth and there are a number of his articles on this site. His life was solely focused on Christ and may we all get back to doing just that.

There is a desire among believers here for truth. (And ye shall know the truth (i.e. Jesus) and the truth shall set you free.) And that my friend is truly a blessed thing and yes it sometimes exposes things in me that I need to repent of but God's word is a sword and not a butter knife.

May God examine my own heart and expose anything wrong in my heart that requires repentance. That's my prayer for all of us here brother. Let's seek the truth in love.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/6/5 21:56Profile
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 Re:

Hi Greg,
I don't know Art Katz from a bump on a log, but just thought I'd throw this out for your consideration.

"5 ¶ And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.

"12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?
13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:Acts 2:5,13-18

Notice who was leading this great outpouring where over 3000 people were saved in one day. It was the same guy that in Matthew 14, got out of the boat, in the middle of the Sea of Galilee to walk on the water with Jesus (and he wasn't even converted yet. I've taken notice that while Peter was doing that, the other 11 Apostles were still arguing if it was Jesus out there or not.

You mentioned the Welch Revival. I had at one time, but cannot find now, a printed article That I received from Charles Carin, of Boynton Beach Fla.( Spirit, Word ,and Power).
The article was a reprint of a letter written By G. Campbell Morgan, who had gone to Wales and experienced first hand the manifestations of that reveival. The positively written article by Mr. Campbell was entitled the best I remember " This Is That..". Bro. Carin would probably send you a copy , he's not hard to find on the www.

I've certainly not yet arrived at the depth of river that I'd like to flow in. I can still walk past people and when my shadow falls on them, and they don't get instantly healed.

I know where that part of the river is though. It's where we ain't.

If you're timid(afraid), and you're not even in the ankle deep yet; I predict you'll end up like those 11 that stayed in the boat. You'll NEVER get to do it like Peter did it.

By the way, everbody that named the name of Jesus in Campbell Morgan's day were not thrilled about those manifestations that came out of that revival in Wales either. There were also many detractors and doubters. To his credit Mr. Campbell went and checked it out for himself.

When I got the Baptism of the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, not everyone here was thrilled either.

The timidity( fear) that I sense, from some of those that frequently post here only comes from one place, and it ain't God."7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind II Timothy1:7.

I suspect those that spent their time debating the genuineness of the Welch Revival, instead of getting in the flow of it, for the most part missed it. Same as those 11 that stayed in the boat, and missed the opportunity to walk on water with Jesus. The best I can recall, that opportunity never presented itself again.

My unsolicited advice is this: " Get out of the boat"!
"17 ¶ Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I John 4:17-18

Clutch


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Howard McNeill

 2004/6/6 17:20Profile
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"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Brother clutch I would assume most have not heard of Art Katz or others who proclaim and love truth at any cost. There are definetly a remenant of people who are jealous for the standard of God that we have lost in our own pursuit of spiritual gain.

On the welsh revival here is a quote from the above article which I really ask that you would read carefully:

"I venture out with some trepidation to raise some questions about a phenomenon that is already perplexing many. Unlike such previous moves of God as the Welsh Revival, noted from its inception for its unmistakably holy character, the present revival generates mixed reports from unequivocal enthusiasm to those that are dubious, critical, and utterly rejecting. Some suggest more than one stream with a fleshly counterfeit paralleling the God-given and authentic. What I have been able to observe via video tape of one principal, and evidently original stream, I found entirely repugnant. Ministers of the word were ostensibly so drunk in the spirit that they were unable to be coherent, railing finally into a collapse from their stupor. I found this entirely unbecoming to the dignity of their professed call and felt the preached word to he denigrated by joking references to the feeble results obtained by it in comparison to the effects procured now by the experiences of the 'power' to which they were testifying. Was it my imagination that made me sense in watching some helplessly convulsing in laughter, that what had gripped them was already panically beyond their control and was actually causing them a physical pain? It is a moot question if one would describe it as 'holy'. On the contrary, it appears to be irreverent if not indeed demonic and hellish." - Art Katz

Quote:
Notice who was leading this great outpouring where over 3000 people were saved in one day. It was the same guy that in Matthew 14, got out of the boat, in the middle of the Sea of Galilee to walk on the water with Jesus (and he wasn't even converted yet. I've taken notice that while Peter was doing that, the other 11 Apostles were still arguing if it was Jesus out there or not.


I assume in your scriptures quoted and your implication in your comments that you are trying to suppose that I am fearful and not walking in the fulness of God. I am busy critiquing peoples attempts at that and therefore I am like an unbelieving disciple in a boat who will not walk into Gods 'river' or move with the 'move' of the spirit in our day. [b]NO, no, no[/b] I am not walking in the fulness of God that I desire to, and I am earnestly seeking things above but in that seeking I am not throwing off all convictions and run blindly into anything that has a sense of desperation and desire to glorify God. The whole landscape of Christianity in the last 40 years has changed for the worse. There are many saying we are in the greatest revival in the history of the church, I loudly proclaim that is a lie. We are in the most desperate need of a revival from God to revive a christianity that is quickly falling away from representing the true nature of God.

Quote:
I suspect those that spent their time debating the genuineness of the Welch Revival, instead of getting in the flow of it, for the most part missed it. Same as those 11 that stayed in the boat, and missed the opportunity to walk on water with Jesus. The best I can recall, that opportunity never presented itself again.


You [b]cannot[/b] equivicate the welsh revival with the madness that is occouring in many christian circles that are labeled as revival happenings. They are debious and are not glorifying Christ and are damaging the witness for Christ.

Quote:
The article was a reprint of a letter written By G. Campbell Morgan, who had gone to Wales and experienced first hand the manifestations of that reveival. The positively written article by Mr. Campbell was entitled the best I remember " This Is That..". Bro. Carin would probably send you a copy , he's not hard to find on the www.


I thank you for that reference and I will follow up to get that written article. But your contrast between this true move of God and what is happening now is clearly wrong. Also for your information Jessie Penn-Lewis (who was a witness of the entire revival) co-authored a book with Evan Roberts called "War with the saints" I very readily suggest you read it. They realized that there were many false manifestations and realized the devil was active trying to muddy the waters. The book is the clearest and best written book on spiritual warfare since william gurnalls "Christian in Complete Armour".


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/6/6 18:41Profile
Clutch
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Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Re:

Hi Greg,
You said:
"You cannot equivicate the welsh revival with the madness that is occouring in many christian circles that are labeled as revival happenings. They are debious and are not glorifying Christ and are damaging the witness for Christ."

Agreed! But I did not equivocate any such thing. My reply was about manifestations that happened at Mr. Katzs'(whom I don't know, but if he loves truth, I'd like to) meeting. These manifestations may or may not have been from God. However,a. based on Acts 2 there is some scriptural support, and b. based on the Welch revival there is some past reliably documented history, to support the manifestations in question.

I'm in total agreement with the second part of your statement. Not only with the chandalier swingers, but the Denominations are as much or more guilty.

Religion is always a killer.

Greg,if I pointed an accusing finger at you for any reason, I repent and ask your forgiveness. I understand that I deserve the 3 pointing back at me when I do that.

Getting out of the boat is still good advice, no apologies for that.

Blessings,
Clutch


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Howard McNeill

 2004/6/6 22:15Profile
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Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37229
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

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 Re:

Brother Clutch,
I would have to say that the phenomina 'drunk in the spirit' as it is seen in many circles now is a clear abuse of scripture and has no scriptural warrant. I would argue what spirit is really is of. And when men do all types of debious acts under this influnce they label it as scriptural because its done in this ephoric state of biblical drunkeness. It clearly lacks the holiness of God in its actions and I think Katz makes the astute judgement that its of a different kind then what occoured at pentecost and on other revivals of religion where Gods spirit was poured out in abundance. I will quote katz paragraph on this and I hope you realize how I am making my observations:

"I venture out with some trepidation to raise some questions about a phenomenon that is already perplexing many. Unlike such previous moves of God as the Welsh Revival, noted from its inception for its unmistakably holy character, the present revival generates mixed reports from unequivocal enthusiasm to those that are dubious, critical, and utterly rejecting. Some suggest more than one stream with a fleshly counterfeit paralleling the God-given and authentic. What I have been able to observe via video tape of one principal, and evidently original stream, I found entirely repugnant. Ministers of the word were ostensibly so drunk in the spirit that they were unable to be coherent, railing finally into a collapse from their stupor. I found this entirely unbecoming to the dignity of their professed call and felt the preached word to he denigrated by joking references to the feeble results obtained by it in comparison to the effects procured now by the experiences of the 'power' to which they were testifying. Was it my imagination that made me sense in watching some helplessly convulsing in laughter, that what had gripped them was already panically beyond their control and was actually causing them a physical pain? It is a moot question if one would describe it as 'holy'. On the contrary, it appears to be irreverent if not indeed demonic and hellish." - Art Katz

Quote:
Greg,if I pointed an accusing finger at you for any reason, I repent and ask your forgiveness. I understand that I deserve the 3 pointing back at me when I do that.


Dear Brother there is a place to judge and even point fingers but I believe in this case my intentions are different then what you stated and I agree your advice would be well taken to anyone who is desiring to go further with God but don't mistake that with accepting the current questionable acts happening in many circles. I would rather out of love of truth hold on to my spiritual revelation and witness of the spirit rather than just flinging myself into every wind and wave of doctrine.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/6/6 22:29Profile





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