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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is a Freewill?

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truth1
Member



Joined: 2007/9/7
Posts: 14


 Re:

Quote:
With the conclusion that you come to, where does the Gospel come in to play? Why did Chist have to die?



great question, and might be at the heart of why the gospel according to Finney is often corrupt?

 2007/9/10 11:51Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

The natural man is able to will to do good but is incapable of doing it:
[b]Rom 7:19[/b] [color=990000]I don't do the good that I actually want to do, but I do the evil that don't want to do.[/color]

Therefore, the unregenerated man can not [b]do good[/b] even though he wants or [b]wills to do good[/b].

The unregenerated man can not [b]because[/b] he first must will to choose faith in order to do the good that he wills.

Only until man chooses to put his faith in Christ he will stay a slave of sin and not be ably to do what he wills for good.

The will is crippled in [b]doing[/b] any good but not in willing any good untill the will is in Christ.

After our will is to be in Christ (which is to have faith) we then will have a changed life, a new view on life, and a new motive for everything that you do. In these new aspects of your life will become actions or works([b]fruit[/b]) that give a testimony of Christ in you.

 2007/9/10 14:37Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Brother Logic wrote:

Quote:
Therefore, the unregenerated man can not do good even though he wants or wills to do good.



Neither can a regenerate man who does not submit to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/11 0:20Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Brother Michael asked:

Quote:
This is not a bait question, I am sincerely curious...

With the conclusion that you come to, where does the Gospel come in to play? Why did Chist have to die?



As Scripture points out, before the foundation of this world Christ was preordained to complete the prophesies spoken of in Scripture. The content of all that Christ did is written in Scripture for us to understand.

I believe Christ is the High Priest Melchizedeck in the OT. I believe He was the Holy One spoken of throughout the OT. And for what purpose did He serve as God's Most High Priest.

To direct the Holy Spirit in the ways spoken of in various Scriptures like Proverbs 1-9 and Psalm 119.

I believe that the evidence of God's plan is clearly established in the examples given to us in the testimonies of Cain and Abel. These testimonies commence with God declaring to Satan...

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Do we not see this declaration take root in the lives of Cain and Abel? This declaration describes the spiritual battle between the children of Satan and the co-heirs of Christ.

Prov. 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
All the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
And those who seek me diligently will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
Enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold,
And my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness,
In the midst of the paths of justice,
21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
That I may fill their treasuries.
22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”

Do you see the promise and the hope of Christ in the Scriptures above?

Remember, Christ sent His apostles out to share the gospel long before He taught them that He would die. What gospel did He teach His apostles to preach?

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/11 0:37Profile









 Re:

Quote:

rookie wrote:
Brother Michael asked:

Quote:
This is not a bait question, I am sincerely curious...

With the conclusion that you come to, where does the Gospel come in to play? Why did Chist have to die?



As Scripture points out, before the foundation of this world Christ was preordained to complete the prophesies spoken of in Scripture. The content of all that Christ did is written in Scripture for us to understand.

I believe Christ is the High Priest Melchizedeck in the OT. I believe He was the Holy One spoken of throughout the OT. And for what purpose did He serve as God's Most High Priest.

To direct the Holy Spirit in the ways spoken of in various Scriptures like Proverbs 1-9 and Psalm 119.

I believe that the evidence of God's plan is clearly established in the examples given to us in the testimonies of Cain and Abel. These testimonies commence with God declaring to Satan...

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.”

Do we not see this declaration take root in the lives of Cain and Abel? This declaration describes the spiritual battle between the children of Satan and the co-heirs of Christ.

Prov. 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
All the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
And those who seek me diligently will find me.
18 Riches and honor are with me,
Enduring riches and righteousness.
19 My fruit is better than gold, yes, than fine gold,
And my revenue than choice silver.
20 I traverse the way of righteousness,
In the midst of the paths of justice,
21 That I may cause those who love me to inherit wealth,
That I may fill their treasuries.
22 “The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields,
Or the primal dust of the world.
27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there,
When He drew a circle on the face of the deep,
28 When He established the clouds above,
When He strengthened the fountains of the deep,
29 When He assigned to the sea its limit,
So that the waters would not transgress His command,
When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight,
Rejoicing always before Him,
31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world,
And my delight was with the sons of men.
32 “Now therefore, listen to me, my children,
For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise,
And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me,
Watching daily at my gates,
Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me finds life,
And obtains favor from the LORD;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul;
All those who hate me love death.”

Do you see the promise and the hope of Christ in the Scriptures above?

Remember, Christ sent His apostles out to share the gospel long before He taught them that He would die. What gospel did He teach His apostles to preach?

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff




I still do not see where you are coming from. According to your conclusion, why would God have to become a man, suffer, and die?

 2007/9/11 6:07
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Brother Michael asks:

Quote:
I still do not see where you are coming from. According to your conclusion, why would God have to become a man, suffer, and die?



Scripture prophesied so before Adam chose to obey Eve and disobey God. In like manner, Christ again, according to Scripture will come back as both God and man to rule over this earth...why does He have to do that, and what will we see and know then?

Job 19

25 For I know that my Redeemer lives,
And He shall stand at last on the earth;
26 And after my skin is destroyed, this I know,
That in my flesh I shall see God,
27 Whom I shall see for myself,
And my eyes shall behold, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job knew his Savior...
In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/11 6:12Profile









 Re:

Agreed, but why would He have to suffer and die?

 2007/9/11 7:29
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4801


 Re:

Quote:
Agreed, but why would He have to suffer and die?
Quote:


Revelation 4:

11 “You are worthy, O Lord,
To receive glory and honor and power;
For You created all things,
And by Your will they exist and were created.”

The Father has determined all according to His will. According to His plan, He demonstated His love to His creation by the example of offering His own Son as a means of reconciling fallen men to Himself.

Rev. 5:11 Then I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne, the living creatures, and the elders; and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice:
“Worthy is the Lamb who was slain
To receive power and riches and wisdom,
And strength and honor and glory and blessing!”

In His plan, we see that His Son receives an inheritance. We too by way of the example that the Son has first demonstrated can enter into the inheritance and be adopted out of captivity to Sin who is Satan.


Paul teaches thus...

Romans 5:

8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

By His blood we are reconciled to the Father. But we are saved from the wrath of God by obeying the Holy Spirit which leads us to the "Life" that saves...

10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

According to Paul we are given the opportunity to walk in the same path as His Son. By walking in the path, by faith unto faith, we learn of His life. We learn of righteousness and by the leading of the Holy Spirit the motivations of our hearts take on the same hopes that the Son had when He gave His life for ours.

This "Life" that we learn to live is described in Proverbs 1-9. This "Life"; the light of life, is encompassed by the "wisdom" that Solomon writes about in this book. This "wisdom" is also taught in Psalm 119 in a different way. In Psalm 119 the word of God teaches us to recognize the "different aspects of relationship" that exist with the Spirit of God.

The book of Job also gives us this same "love story."

Job 33

25 His flesh shall be young like a child’s,
He shall return to the days of his youth.
26 He shall pray to God, and He will delight in him,
He shall see His face with joy,
For He restores to man His righteousness.
27 Then he looks at men and says,
“I have sinned, and perverted what was right,
And it did not profit me.’
28 He will redeem his soul from going down to the Pit,
And his life shall see the light.
29 “Behold, God works all these things,
Twice, in fact, three times with a man,
30 To bring back his soul from the Pit,
That he may be enlightened with the light of life.

This "light of life" is 'wisdom" that comes by the Holy Spirit. This knowledge is the means by which man may please God.

Job 36

5 “Behold, God is mighty, but despises no one;
He is mighty in strength of understanding.
6 He does not preserve the life of the wicked,
But gives justice to the oppressed.
7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
But they are on the throne with kings,
For He has seated them forever,
And they are exalted.
8 And if they are bound in fetters,
Held in the cords of affliction,
9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions—
That they have acted defiantly.
10 He also opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they turn from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve Him,
They shall spend their days in prosperity,
And their years in pleasures.
12 But if they do not obey,
They shall perish by the sword,
And they shall die without knowledge.

Instruction by the Holy Spirit, our Councelor, is the means by which God has determined to conform men into the image of His Son. This is the Light of Life...

John 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.

John 8:12 Then Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.”

John 12:46 I have come as a light into the world, that whoever believes in Me should not abide in darkness.

Rev. 21:22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

God Bless
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/13 1:11Profile





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