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riki
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Joined: 2003/11/30
Posts: 78
Sweden

 Re:

Mike (5nva) wrote:
[i]There are prophetic gifts and there is the office of the prophet. I am probably not the one to try to define the two but it would be good for us all to continue on in this post and see what come out.[/i]


I feel the same way, there are others who have already written on the subject way better than I could ever do. I will add a few personal comments, though.

For me the case is the following: I had wondered for a long time what it really meant to be a prophet and wondered if I had ever met one. Sure I had heard people prophecy here and there, but the prophets in the Old Testament and John the Baptist (for example) seemed to be something else. There was something in their way of living that was so different. Then, I think it was when reading Art Katz's The Spirit of Prophecy (or perhaps The Prophetic Call), something within me said YES - This is what it's about! The difference seemed very clear and I felt something resonating somewhere deep within me when reading the book. No one had ever told me about the difference before and no one had ever shown me why it is so important that we do not only have the gift of prophecy among us but also real prophets! The Spirit can use anyone He wishes to deliver a specific message at a certain time, but that does not make that person a prophet. A prophet is something so much more.

I would recommend all of you to read one of the two books mentioned, to get a better understanding of these things. These are not just some dry books, I believe they are a cry from the heart of God.

[url=http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/prophetic_call/the_prophetic_call.htm]The Prophetic Call[/url]

[url=http://www.benisrael.org/OnlineBooks/spirit_of_proph/contents_sp_of_proph.htm]The Spirit of Prophecy[/url]


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Rikard Eriksson

 2004/5/16 17:40Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

In this thread I see many people believe that there are Prophets in the church today. Yet I have not seen anyone name any Prophets who are Prophesying today. Can anyone name a few Prophets who are alive today? This would certainly clarify to me what you mean when you say there are Prophets Prophesying today.

Though the greek word for Prophet means to foretell, the Biblical meaning of a Prophet is: "One who speaks forth the word of God as if God Himself was speaking."

I love Billy Graham for the great Christian ministry and witness he has had, but I think of him as a teacher and expounder of the gospel, and not as being Prophet.

David Wilkerson may be a Prophet if his visions are indeed from God.

FYI, not all Prophets are particularly close to God. The Prophet Baalam was an unholy and sinful Prophet, yet God clearly spoke through Baalam.


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Arthur Biele

 2004/5/24 3:09Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

In this thread I see many people believe that there are Prophets in the church today. Yet I have not seen anyone name any Prophets who are Prophesying today. Can anyone name a few Prophets who are alive today? This would certainly clarify to me what you mean when you say there are Prophets Prophesying today.



I personally know/have known several individuals I have no doubt that they had the call of a prophet on their lives. However, even if I said their names and where they live, that still wouldn't really mean much, as the ones I have known are vastly unknowns, as most prophets biblically speaking, have been.


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Jimmy H

 2004/5/24 6:17Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I don't like the word "revelation" when it comes to a New Testament prophet ... I think a better word would be "illumination" on what's alreadt revealed ... There are no new revelations forthcoming in the entire Bible save for the two books spoken of in the Revelation that are to be opened in the future ... NT prophets recieve further "illumination" from God on what's already revealed



I'm sorry I can't attribute the quote; I lost the trail.

I can understand why you would want to avoid the word revelation. We would be anxious to ensure that we are not claiming extra-biblical revelation. However, I think 'revelation' is far the better word. There is a continuing insight which enables expositors to draw fresh light from old scriptures, but this is not the same as the prophetic gift.

The classic link would be the biblical comment added in (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for he that is now called a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.) (1Sa 9:9 KJV) A prophet is someone who sees what others do not see. Their 'seeing' is not because they have acquired special skills but because it is 'revealed' to them.

When I am addressing younger folk and want to explain the continuing NT gift of prophecy within the church I usually say; "when someone suddenly knows what God is thinking, and speaks it out; that is prophecy". It a very simplistic definition I know, but it serves as an introduction to the subject.

How does an occasional gift become a calling? I think through regular exercise which builds faith in the user. It becomes almost second nature to lift the heart to God to receive His thoughts. The consequent expression of God's thoughts may relate to the past, the present or the future. 'Foretelling' is not an essential, or even primary aspect of prophecy. It is simply the God's eye view of any circumstance or event; linear time is irrelevant to this.

The appropriateness of the word 'revelation' is also seen in Paul's instructions to the Corinthians; Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (1Co 14:29-31 KJV)

There is also a vital link between a prophet and an intercessor, as is seen in God's word to Ablimelech; Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine. (Gen 20:7 KJV)

There's an easy way of recognising prophets; while they are alive people throw stones at them, but when they are dead people build commemorative websites for them. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/5/24 8:35Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Quote:

PreachingToCannibals wrote:
Quote:


I personally know/have known several individuals I have no doubt that they had the call of a prophet on their lives. However, even if I said their names and where they live, that still wouldn't really mean much, as the ones I have known are vastly unknowns, as most prophets biblically speaking, have been.



Okay, you are personally convinced that you know some 'local' Prophets, who when speaking in God's name, it is God speaking and not them. Am I correctly understanding you?

If I am understanding you correctly, what new revelations have you received from these "Prophets". Two or three examples would be plenty. Of course, if these revelations were meant for you only, I will understand if you decide not to share such personal revelations that you received from these people..


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Arthur Biele

 2004/5/24 9:25Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:



Quote:
I don't like the word "revelation" when it comes to a New Testament prophet ... I think a better word would be "illumination" on what's alreadt revealed ... There are no new revelations forthcoming in the entire Bible save for the two books spoken of in the Revelation that are to be opened in the future ... NT prophets recieve further "illumination" from God on what's already revealed



Illumination on what is already revealed is known as teaching. The greatest teacher we have is the Holy Spirit that God sent to us to dwell within us. Among other things, the Holy Spirit imparts in us understanding of that which has already been revealed, especially when we ernestly seek understanding.

In my view, an 'illuminator' of God's revelation is just another term for 'teacher', and not 'Prophet'.


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Arthur Biele

 2004/5/24 9:48Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Hi ArtB

I think we are on the same track. I think illumination is vital to Bible teaching where the good scribe brings from his treasure things new and old in the power of the Spirit. Anything less than this is really 'bubble and squeak'. (an English delicacy composed of yesterday's food, refried. Who says we have no cordon bleu over here? :-? )

The essence of revelation is that something which had been specifically hidden is now unveiled. It is the taking away of the covering. Illumination is often needed for what has been unveiled. It is the adding of light to what may have become obscured. In this sense the ongoing prophetic ministry would always be extra-biblical, not in terms of an equal authority, but by its very nature. If it were already in the Book it would require illumination not revelation.

In that sense there would only be 'one revelation', the secret things belong to God but the things that are revealed are ours forever, whereas revealed truth may receive subsequent illumination; the reformation is a classic example of the latter.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/5/24 10:07Profile
ArtB
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 431
New York

 Re:

Most agreed, philologos.


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Arthur Biele

 2004/5/24 10:11Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Illumination vs. Revelation



philologos quote:

"I can't understand why you would want to avoid the word revelation. We would be anxious to ensure that we are not claiming extra-biblical revelation. However, I think 'revelation' is far the better word. There is a continuing insight which enables expositors to draw fresh light from old scriptures, but this is not the same as the prophetic gift".


If you feel more comfortable with the word "revelation" I of course have no problem with that as Amos 3:7 states clearly, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets " ... Revealeth equates to a God given "revelation" to men, via a man ... It's like me saying "po-tay-toe/illumination" and you saying "pa-tah-toe/revelation", as long as everyone else understands that we're both refering to that light brown tuber, with the dimples, from Idaho, it's ok by me .... '0)

I prefer the use of the phrase "illumination from what is already revealed" to bring a persons/groups attention to the fact that today we have a complete Bible, and If a modern "thus saith the Lord" that is coming forth can not be proved grounded in the already revealed Bible of God then it should be questioned, if not flat out rejected ... Same thing with Jesus ... If someone comes forth with a word about Christ that is brand new from anything that is already found in completed scripture, then I'd really question that word ...

Before the Word of God was a complete book, back when new "revelations" from God were still in progress, I personally have no problem with the word revelation ... But today, just to keep it in check, when I hear someone come forth with a "thus saith the Lord", for me, the new revelation must check out with the completed revelation (the Bible) ... This is why I say that today God is illiminating, sheding more light on whats already revealed, to His prophets ... So that I now view Amos 3:7 like this, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but He (illumine) his secret (from what is already revealed) unto his servants the prophets " ...

That is why I stated "There are no new revelations forthcoming in the entire Bible save for the new books that will be opened in the future, spoken of in Daniel 12 & Rev. chapter 5 & 10 ... The Apostle Paul said presently that "we all see thru a glass darkly", but soon would come full illumination to what's already revealed in scripture ... NT prophets recieve further "illumination" from God on what's already revealed is my personal way of keeping myself in check when I believe I have recieved a word from our Lord, and a way to convey to others that they must not take a word from me, or anyone else, unless it stands up to the lithmus test of what's already revealed, and that it's always pointing to, and uplifting Jesus Christ ... Amen



 2004/5/24 10:14Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Rahman
I actually said 'I can see why you would want to avoid the word revelation.

You also say...

Quote:
That is why I stated "There are no new revelations forthcoming in the entire Bible save for the new books that will be opened in the future, spoken of in Daniel 12 & Rev. chapter 5 & 10 ... The Apostle Paul said presently that "we all see thru a glass darkly", but soon would come full illumination to what's already revealed in scripture ... NT prophets recieve further "illumination" from God on what's already revealed is my personal way of keeping myself in check when I believe I have recieved a word from our Lord, and a way to convey to others that they must not take a word from me, or anyone else, unless it stands up to the lithmus test of what's already revealed, and that it's always pointing to, and uplifting Jesus Christ ... Amen



I have no problem with this except for the hook you have chosen to hang it on. Cessationists head like hornets for this verse as their main sciptural justification for discounting all contemporary 'manisfestations of the Spirit'. But we have been here before in these pages...

One main difference I would want to draw attention to is the permanent nature of Biblical revelation/prophecy as distinct to what I believe to be temporary and local of the contemporary gift. Contemporary revelation can add nothing to the closed canon of scripture, but that does not mean it doesn't fulfil an extremely valuable function.

I also think there is a fundamental difference between revelation and illumination which is not really covered in your illustration. I don't mind how you say potato, but we can't say potato if we mean carrot. ;-)


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Ron Bailey

 2004/5/24 11:08Profile





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