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pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 God's Chosen Land?

God's Chosen Land? :: Remix

Monday, July 2, 2007 at 11:16PM

Nick Kennicott in Opinion, Current Events, Contemporary Issues, Faith, Spirituality

I am reminded once again this week why I wrote a post 1 year ago entitled “God’s Chosen Land?” The prevailing evangelical conservative opinion of patriotism = devotion to Christ, or non-patriotism = non-Christian, is troubling to say the least. As a veteran and voting citizen of this country, I have many opinions about the nation’s direction, objectives, actions, and governance, yet at the end of the day I am happy that God chose to give me life in America. Nevertheless, I am deeply troubled by the opinion of those who equate citizenship in this country with citizenship in God’s Kingdom. The Church has made great advances that have stemmed from the United States, but the Church is not, nor was it ever uniquely American. You don’t have to be a patriot to be a Christian. Likewise, just because you’re not a patriot and don’t support every action of your country, doesn’t mean you don’t love your country.
Before I get going too much(!), I’d like to re-post my article from last year: “God’s Chosen land?” I’ve made several changes, but the message remains the same:

As I think about this week in celebration of American Independence, I am grateful for several things. I am grateful for my freedom, not to do what I want, but to do as I ought. I am grateful for all those who have given so much for the preservation of our country’s freedom, to include blood, sweat, tears, and life. I am grateful that I was healthy enough to serve my country in 6 combat tours over a 4 year period of time with Special Operations forces. But with all that said, I am troubled by a typical American notion that we are somehow God’s chosen nation.
In the Baptist Hymnal, both “America the Beautiful” and “My Country, ‘Tis of Thee” are subtitled with Psalm 33:12 (KJV): “Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord.” I question, is America’s God the Lord?
At his inaugural address, the first in our nation’s history, George Washington was compelled to acknowledge God’s role in the founding of America:
It would be peculiarly improper to omit in the first official Act, my fervent supplications to that Almighty Being… No people can be bound to acknowledge and adore the invisible hand which conducts the Affairs of men more than the People of the United States. Every step, by which they have advanced to the character of an independent nation, seems to have been distinguished by some…providential agency…We ought to be no less persuaded that the propitious smiles of Heaven, can never be expected on a nation that disregards the eternal rules of order and right, which Heaven itself has ordained.
In the context of 1700’s culture, George Washington’s words, I believe, were particularly true. I cannot doubt that America is a country founded on Christian principles (although it has been compellingly argued otherwise). Nor could I ever infer that God was absent in the fight for independence - our American forefathers were successful, against all odds. Too often, though, we equate military and economic power with blessings from God. In today’s context, do we see the “invisible hand” in the “Affairs of men… Every step by which [we are] advanced” as a nation?
There have been some nations that consider themselves to be chosen to lead the world. Jewish believers consider themselves to be God’s chosen people — with reasonable support — and nationalism forces Zionists to consider Israel as an expression of this status. There are very few, however, who would consider Israel the apparent leader for the world in its entirety.
The French had a revolution leading many of them to a feeling of obligation to civilize and liberate various nations — not drastically different from the ideals of many Americans. Ancient civilizations often felt compelled to consider themselves chosen and forced their ideology on nations of lesser strength. It seems that every nation has seen itself with “special” eyes, perhaps making it better or more suitable for the purposes of God… but has it ever been to the extent of the American mentality?
Many of the early colonists and political leaders of America had a lot to say about God’s providence in the founding of our country. America has, for the entirety of its existence, been regarded by most (Americans) as the new Israel. America has done many wonderful things. Twice we have freed Europe from tyranny. We have brought peace and eliminated genocide in foreign lands. We have provided countless opportunities for individuals to live successful lives with less suffering. We’ve offered liberty to millions of immigrants. These and other accomplishments should not be under-valued. But does all this make us God’s chosen nation?
I say no.
There is an undeniable danger in assuming God’s election resides solely in the heart of our nation. America is an incredible place to live. I have traveled the world, mostly to third world countries, and can say from experience that we are truly blessed to have the freedoms and opportunities that are available. Sadly though, I believe many of the freedoms and opportunities we have make America a fertile soil for the seeds of Satan. If America was God’s chosen nation, would we then be the third largest recipient of foreign missionaries? Our lawmakers consistently manipulate our founding documents and legal precedent to deny anything that may have once been formed with Christian roots. Various organizations have successfully convoluted the American mindset to believe in absolute tolerance and conditional truth. 45 Million + unborn children have been killed to the tune of American freedom to choose, at the hands of American doctors (4 times more deaths than Adolf Hitler was responsible for). Our values consist of more money, bigger houses, faster cars, and better promiscuous sex. Our “heroes” play sports, make movies, and sing songs while living lives comparable to Jezebel and Judas. The American dream is bigger and better.
The American dream is a lie.
A chosen nation that openly invites sin and consistently acts against the will of one true God? Reprehensible.
I love and have fought for America. I thank God for the blessings of this wonderful place. But I will never make the mistake that America is God’s chosen land. His Kingdom is much greater than our country — it pains me to see that so many have lost sight of that and have made America their heaven on earth. Might we always work to see our country find it’s meaning in Proverbs 3:5-6 (ESV): “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and do not lean on your own understanding. In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.”
Lord Jesus, come quickly.
I close with some of the greatest words that Derek Webb has offered — from his song “A King and a Kingdom”:
So my first allegiance is not to a flag, a country or a man;
No, my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood;
It’s to a King and a Kingdom.
There are two great lies that I’ve heard;
The day you eat a fruit of that tree you will not surely die;
And that Jesus Christ was a white middle-class republican;
And if you wanna be saved you have to learn to be like Him.
So my first allegiance is not to a flag, a country or a man;
No, my first allegiance is not to democracy or blood;
It’s to a King and a Kingdom.


 2007/9/7 19:42Profile









 Re: God's Chosen Land?

[color=FF0000]Are you saying God doesn't have any power to bless a nation on earth? I read some or your post, but it did take many lines to see the agenda and in that agenda was the same ole rollover and ignorance of American history and I couldn't bare to read the what isn't and what was not history.

Just as man's works does not save him but he/she is saved unto good works. We don't work to be saved but because we are saved in thankfulness of the cross. In the same manner a man who is willing to do more than rollover and surrender to an enemy (terrorists)that all are full of the devil and his works, I just cannot figure out.

What has changed about a Godly man serving his nation since our nation began, and indeed loving HIS GOD first, family and country in that order. Yes, you are correct, our citizenship is in heaven. But we ain't there yet. If we indeed are christians, our eternity has already began at spiritual birth and in HIM through HIM everything will find it's purpose. This rollerover-surrender to the enemy agenda I can't even start to figure out. And for any American to make the statement that our country, America was not founded on Biblical principles after you walk through DC and see all the scripture on the buildings, the picture of Moses and other prophets, in the Supreme Courtroom and all the references to God and HIS WORD all throughout the capitol which I'm sure the liberals have already started a plan to remove. To read all the historical documents and statement by the framers and those after. The Senate always having a chaplin. The Senate in the past having prayer before each session. Many other things that tell us that America began dependant upon God not only for eternity but here on earth as well. Our declaration of independence was only independence from other nations rule but also a declaration of totally dependency upon on God.

PastorFrin it is not my desire to be contentous, but this is just pure ignorance of has been for 200 years of history. It has all started with some groups and agenda for what I don't know, that says "what's God got to do with it". This crew arrived on the scene about 40 years ago, of which it appears and seems you are a card carrying member of. Brother you may be a veteran and a pastor and may have knowledge of the scripture, but your American history is very limited in knowledge of the nation dependency on God. I respectfully disagree with your American history and the fact that American the past was much more devoted a Holy God in numbers than the present and also disagree with the statement or attitude or insinuation that God hasn't enabled Americans to help other nations financially and help many nations fight and prevent communist aggression to achieve and the same freedom that we have enjoyed for 200+ years, the freedom to worship God without being interfered with or to have the option to be ignorant and not worship if it was ones choice. I can't figure why they fight anyone speaking about Jesus. You can't force Jesus on anyone. It must be voluntary. I also would like to remind you of the fact that Jesus came to world that through HIM the world might be saved and not to condemn the world but to give those who would accept SON and HIS free gift not only for eternal life but life more abundantly here on earth, but only for those who make HIM both Lord and Savior.
To have the attitude you are talking about here and the message you are conveying, there are many things you could exclude from your expense account and save money.
Fire Alarms in your home.
Door Locks on your Home or your car.
Seat belts
No doctor bills, just don't go if your sick.
Have a block put on 911 on your phone.

One with this attitude could move to another country that didn't have those military guys and police to protect them and ruining their nations name as you say they are.
You get the general idea of what I'm saying, need I say more.[/color] :-D

 2007/9/8 1:07
jlosinski
Member



Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska

 Re:

May not be totally on subject, but I think that the body of Christ in North America needs some old fashioned physical persecution. I'm not saying this to be flippant, such persecution has always flamed the refining fire of God in true hearts.

No legal battles in court as to the definition of "free speech" concerning religion, you are unjustly tried and punished for spreading the Gospel. No legal loopholes, just confessing to the rock of offense and taking your unjust punishment as a disciple of Christ.

It seems that it would a sort of chastisment for the body of Christ, a disciplining for the weak gospel that is in our country today, I think that we have lost sight of the justice of God.
Joe

 2007/9/8 1:30Profile
jlosinski
Member



Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska

 Re:

Moe:

Which god does the government acknowlege? The monotheistic one? Allah and God are one and the same?

[i]President Extends Condolences and Condemns Bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra to Iraqi People [/i]

On behalf of the American people, I extend my deepest condolences to the people of Iraq for the brutal bombing of the Golden Mosque in Samarra, one of the holiest sites in Shi'a Islam. The terrorists in Iraq have again proven that they are enemies of all faiths and of all humanity. The world must stand united against them, and steadfast behind the people of Iraq. This senseless crime is an affront to people of faith throughout the world. The United States condemns this cowardly act in the strongest possible terms.

I ask all Iraqis to exercise restraint in the wake of this tragedy, and to pursue justice in accordance with the laws and constitution of Iraq. Violence will only contribute to what the terrorists sought to achieve by this act.

The United States stands ready to do all in its power to assist the Government of Iraq to identify and bring to justice those responsible for this terrible act. [i][b]And the American people pledge to work with the people of Iraq to rebuild and restore the Golden Mosque of Samarra to its former glory.[/b][/i] :eek:

( I was in Samarra in '03 USMC, and I don't pledge to rebuild it.)

It'd be nice of the name of Jesus would be spoken of in a speech, instead of the "fill in the blank" god spoken of by our christian brothers and sisters. Can anyone say privitization??? :roll:

 2007/9/8 1:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

jlosinski wrote:
May not be totally on subject, but I think that the body of Christ in North America needs some old fashioned physical persecution. I'm not saying this to be flippant, such persecution has always flamed the refining fire of God in true hearts.

No legal battles in court as to the definition of "free speech" concerning religion, you are unjustly tried and punished for spreading the Gospel. No legal loopholes, just confessing to the rock of offense and taking your unjust punishment as a disciple of Christ.

It seems that it would a sort of chastisment for the body of Christ, a disciplining for the weak gospel that is in our country today, I think that we have lost sight of the justice of God.
Joe



moe_mac wrote: It appears to me God has withdrawn HIS SPIRIT from those who want to compromise their devotion and service to God with the people who consider Allah to be the one that is worthy of and more than equal to Jesus. They call it being religiously tolerant. Another one of their pet watered down names for sin. Of course we know that Islam doesn't even acknowledge Jesus as prophet much less know who he is in being the Lord of Glory to those who believe. I believe God has the power to stop the terorist and HE will stop them in HIS time table and just exactly how he will do it, I don't know. You can't ignore the God of Abraham, Isaiac and Jacob, the one who sent HIS SON to take the sins of the world upon HIM in grace and mercy and love for justice in what we could not do for ourselves and not see HIS Wrath in time.

I pray for a great awakening in people's lives to clearly see and stand against evil and stand for the Lord of Glory. God's Word unites a nation when HE is accepted as Lord as HE once was, division comes when HIS LORDSHIP and word it is not accepting.
SINFULL REALIZATION CAN PRODUCE the WISDOM to ASK FORGIVENESS FROM HIM which lead to forgiveness and to thanksgiving and which leads to repentance
Repentance leads to HIS Lordship.
Lordship leads to a relationship with the Lord of Glory, Jesus
Relationship leads to victory!

 2007/9/8 2:48
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Moe wrote:

Quote:
Are you saying God doesn't have any power to bless a nation on earth?



Moe wrote:
Quote:
I read some or your post, but it did take many lines to see the agenda and in that agenda was the same ole rollover and ignorance of American history and I couldn't bare to read the what isn't and what was not history.




No, and a question of this sort proves you are jumping to conclusions from your own preconceived ideas; showing all you have not read the post, but instead, choose to interject your assumptions as truth.


Moe wrote:
Quote:
One with this attitude could move to another country that didn't have those military guys and police to protect them and ruining their nations name as you say they are.




May I suggest reading all the post before you so quickly throw me and all others who question, out of the country I have fought for, and seem to according to some, have a right to a voice?

Moe you remind me of one who is suffering from PTSD, I have been their and work around those who are suffering from it at the present time.
You need to stop accusing me of promoting the teaching ‘What has God got to do with it’; your accusations are unfounded and untrue and only stem from your own imagination.
I know very well what God has to do with it, and have never advocated any such thing.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior and I take very seriously His command to:

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Galatians 5:15
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Moe, we are brothers in the Lord and though brothers may disagree they are still brothers.
Please read the lines and not between the lines, if you have a question, ask in love and I am more then willing to answer in love.

I have spent many years proclaiming that Jesus Christ is the only one who can set one free and He alone is the only way to the Father. “Whom the Son sets free is free indeed”, there is no freedom other than what He gives. I know, for He Has Set me Free.

We need to continually ask ourselves, is the love of Jesus Christ our only motivation, or are we serving another?

Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

In His Love
pastorfrin



 2007/9/8 10:35Profile









 Re:

Quote:

pastorfrin wrote:
Moe wrote:

Quote:
Are you saying God doesn't have any power to bless a nation on earth?



Moe wrote:
Quote:
I read some or your post, but it did take many lines to see the agenda and in that agenda was the same ole rollover and ignorance of American history and I couldn't bare to read the what isn't and what was not history.




No, and a question of this sort proves you are jumping to conclusions from your own preconceived ideas; showing all you have not read the post, but instead, choose to interject your assumptions as truth.


Moe wrote:
Quote:
One with this attitude could move to another country that didn't have those military guys and police to protect them and ruining their nations name as you say they are.




May I suggest reading all the post before you so quickly throw me and all others who question, out of the country I have fought for, and seem to according to some, have a right to a voice?

Moe you remind me of one who is suffering from PTSD, I have been their and work around those who are suffering from it at the present time.
You need to stop accusing me of promoting the teaching ‘What has God got to do with it’; your accusations are unfounded and untrue and only stem from your own imagination.
I know very well what God has to do with it, and have never advocated any such thing.

Jesus Christ is my Lord and savior and I take very seriously His command to:

John 13:34-35
A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. [35] By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Galatians 5:15
But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Moe, we are brothers in the Lord and though brothers may disagree they are still brothers.
Please read the lines and not between the lines, if you have a question, ask in love and I am more then willing to answer in love.

I have spent many years proclaiming that Jesus Christ is the only one who can set one free and He alone is the only way to the Father. “Whom the Son sets free is free indeed”, there is no freedom other than what He gives. I know, for He Has Set me Free.

We need to continually ask ourselves, is the love of Jesus Christ our only motivation, or are we serving another?

Romans 1:9
For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

In His Love
pastorfrin




[color=003399]moe_mac revealed:Pastorfrin I have not questioned your love for the Lord. I do question the definition of what exactly an expression of HIS love to others would mean in the scriptures and the expression of love and resistence against evil in military action to help others and also what some consider our framers meant in the constituion in the definition of separation of church and state in the nation for 200 years and then changed it, about HIS love in defending the weak and helpless and those who are oppressed by dictators is an expression of HIS love I believe.

And to answer one of your other questions, Pastorfrin, I know there will be some who will probably use this against me on SI, but I believe in being truthful. When I made Jesus Lord I have took lying out as an option and when one does it will change their life. You hit the nail on the head, yes, I have been diagnosed with and do suffer from PTSD from 40 years ago from events from military service, also COPD, Arthritus, Hypertention, hearing loss, among other things, and I do ask for your prayers and prayers from others as well, but I must say PTSD has nothing to do with the question at hand or the scriptures and devotion to God first and family second or my country third nor does it have anything to do with my comments being truthful in the history of the USA. If it were not for the Lord Jesus Christ and HIS love I would not be able to cope. He is my strength, my Lord and my salvation and in HIM I will trust.
In His Love also
moe_mac[/color]

 2007/9/8 11:02









 Re:

Quote:
I know there will be some who will probably use this against me on SI, but I believe in being truthful.



Not on our watch Brother Moe. ;-)

You have nothing that would rob you of Christ and the ability to hear from Him through Scripture.
You heard "Eze 33" - and may I add, if not for this one difference of opinion you've been having with Pastorfrin, you have found a very close friend in him.
I would only pray, that these "earthly" differences that you presently have with him, would be over-shadowed with the fact that I personally believe he is an Eze 33 "watchman".
This is not to promote any man, but I've watched how things have progressed here and feel that in all of my travels and all of my years on this planet - that there are very more false prophets than there are true.
I pray your friendship with Brother Frin increases and earthly differences can be put aside. Soon they will not matter.
David had a Jonathan, if you know what I mean.
I find it an honor to find a Forum where there are ones that I can look up to, no matter how "seasoned" I may be regarding my age or whatnot.
Many here have formed that type of relationship/friendship with another or a few and that is natural and beneficial. They email each other and some even call on the phone to each other. To form a friendship here is no different than what goes on at our Churches.
There are sections of Eccles. 4 about two or three being better than one - that I think you'd appreciate.
I may not agree with you neither on these earthly issues, but that does not change the fact that I would defend you to the death.

Normally, I stay off of these type threads because I cannot agree with most on these earthly issues. More than likely because I know what is coming.
Our troops are being trained to turn against us.
Many are killing themselves because they see human decentcy being thrown out.
They are seeing their own fellow soldiers becoming in-human.
Yes, not all are bad - but I also am a Veteran Viet Nam era in my middle twenties - and this is not the same Military that I was in, nonetheless the same country and that is putting it mildly.
There came a point where the Lord told me to look UP and to HIM and nothing of this world - except to "watch the signs of the times".
So I find it is best to never split with a brother or go around and around over a topic which will soon be made evident to all.
Biblical Prophecy is being fulfilled as we speak and I can't see anything else worth focusing on but that and spiritually preparing for the days ahead. And as LittleGift said, "to help others to do so" --- that is to help others to get through victoriously "what is coming".
May HE Bless you with that Peace that passes ALL understanding. You are loved here.

 2007/9/8 14:37
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Moe wrote:

Quote:
And to answer one of your other questions, Pastorfrin, I know there will be some who will probably use this against me on SI, but I believe in being truthful. When I made Jesus Lord I have took lying out as an option and when one does it will change their life. You hit the nail on the head, yes, I have been diagnosed with and do suffer from PTSD from 40 years ago from events from military service, also COPD, Arthritus, Hypertention, hearing loss, among other things, and I do ask for your prayers and prayers from others as well, but I must say PTSD has nothing to do with the question at hand or the scriptures and devotion to God first and family second or my country third nor does it have anything to do with my comments being truthful in the history of the USA. If it were not for the Lord Jesus Christ and HIS love I would not be able to cope. He is my strength, my Lord and my salvation and in HIM I will trust.



Brother Moe, we are practically twins, and definitely brothers in more than one way.
To quote HE_Reigns "Not on our watch"
Anyone that would hold what we have suffered and may still be suffering against us, is neither a christian or a follower of Christ. I to have suffered from PTSD, hypertension, arthritis and kidney cancer all possibly linked to events from military service from 42 years ago. You may have read my testimony on the 'we need to talk about peace' thread. I walked a very dark road brother and the Lord gloriously set me free. Praise His Wonderful Name!
Moe, I did not mean in any way that this has to do with what you believe, but how we express ourselves to others. We have a tendency to express ourselves, in what many feel is anger, when we are simply trying to make a point. After a few failed attempts to express myself, I began to write what I had to say, read it over, pray about it, sometimes change it and other times not to post it at all. Seems to work and there is never a rush, I can simply wait on the Lord.
Brother I respect your service and your beliefs and am proud to call you a Bother.

In His Love
pastorfrin

 2007/9/8 18:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

pastorfrin wrote:
Moe wrote:

Quote:
And to answer one of your other questions, Pastorfrin, I know there will be some who will probably use this against me on SI, but I believe in being truthful. When I made Jesus Lord I have took lying out as an option and when one does it will change their life. You hit the nail on the head, yes, I have been diagnosed with and do suffer from PTSD from 40 years ago from events from military service, also COPD, Arthritus, Hypertention, hearing loss, among other things, and I do ask for your prayers and prayers from others as well, but I must say PTSD has nothing to do with the question at hand or the scriptures and devotion to God first and family second or my country third nor does it have anything to do with my comments being truthful in the history of the USA. If it were not for the Lord Jesus Christ and HIS love I would not be able to cope. He is my strength, my Lord and my salvation and in HIM I will trust.



Brother Moe, we are practically twins, and definitely brothers in more than one way.
To quote HE_Reigns "Not on our watch"
Anyone that would hold what we have suffered and may still be suffering against us, is neither a christian or a follower of Christ. I to have suffered from PTSD, hypertension, arthritis and kidney cancer all possibly linked to events from military service from 42 years ago. You may have read my testimony on the 'we need to talk about peace' thread. I walked a very dark road brother and the Lord gloriously set me free. Praise His Wonderful Name!
Moe, I did not mean in any way that this has to do with what you believe, but how we express ourselves to others. We have a tendency to express ourselves, in what many feel is anger, when we are simply trying to make a point. After a few failed attempts to express myself, I began to write what I had to say, read it over, pray about it, sometimes change it and other times not to post it at all. Seems to work and there is never a rush, I can simply wait on the Lord.
Brother I respect your service and your beliefs and am proud to call you a Bother.

In His Love
pastorfrin

[color=0000FF]

Thanks Pastorfrin and He_reigns for the kind words, support and friendship. I have many times in my prayers ask God if I was doing the right thing posting on SI and many times have listened intently for instructions from HIM, to post or not to post ever again, because often the way I come across in my post offends others. To offend if not my purpose or intentions. I not only have that problem of offending on SI, but also in my many face to face life relationships with other people, even my family. I know that when I read a post, if I knew more about the person posting, I could better answer the post and with more compassion than I normally do. Often we don't know what they are going through or have just been through in life's problems. Also we have many different cultures on SI that tend to be a hinderance in our communications. But as I have said before to others on SI. At the end of the of the day and the post, after all of us have given what God's Word says to us and as a result we have more love for each other, than we did prior to the post, it's worth the pain. I can say that is the case here in this post.
Thanks brothers and God Bless.
In HIS LOVE
moe
[/color]

 2007/9/8 19:24





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