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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

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PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:

Nile wrote:
Quote:
The same reason I would tell my child, "if you play in the street, or drink poison, you will have problems".

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.



No one warns their child of something there child is not capable of doing.



Were you looking at my computer screen while I was typing? :-P


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Josh Parsley

 2007/9/7 16:31Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

But the warnings were to those turning from the sufficiency of Christ and His work and payment for the sins of His people.

If a man that was genuinely regenerated could be lost, Jesus would be a liar for saying-
John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, [b]that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[/b]

And notice, here Christ mentions this work again-
John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, [b]that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.[/b]
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Notice who gives eternal life, and what it is.

Then compare that with these-
John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Or in John 6-
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Compare this with Romans 8 and you'll see that Christ will not lose any that are given to Him.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 16:46Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Quote:
This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

Many of the warnings especially in Hebrews are written to warn the audience not to turn from the sufficient sacrifice of Christ to either sacrifices or self righteousness.





I would ask the same question of someone who believes God already knows who will respond to his warnings. Why would God warn someone who he knows already will not listen to the warning? Is he robbing that person of the chance to obey. Clearly not, whatever is going to happen, God already knows so he has not been insincere either in the warning or in not warning. God has the sure privelege to make His glorious law known whether any man will obey it or not. Suppose God were not to use the Holy Spirit to enlighten the blind to their error. Would he be less sincere to proclaim His law to the blind anyway? The basic presumption in any argument to the contrary is that man deserves fairness from God and that is a fundamentally flawed premise. God is fair in his judgement. Anything is else is pure mercy and purely to God's pleasure and discretion.

If you were in an open field, would tell your child "now don't fall off that 1000ft bluff." Of course not, it is impossible to fall off a bluff when you are in an open field. For you to warm someone of something, you are implying there is a possibility of it happening.

 2007/9/7 19:31Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Why would God warn someone who he knows already will not listen to the warning?



Because He doesn't know if they will respond or not. That's why He's warning them. If He knew they wouldn't listen, He wouldn't bother.


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/7 19:51Profile
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Quote:

Nile wrote:
Quote:
Why would God warn someone who he knows already will not listen to the warning?



Because He doesn't know if they will respond or not. That's why He's warning them. If He knew they wouldn't listen, He wouldn't bother.



You don't believe God is omnicient?

 2007/9/7 19:54Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro hmmhmm

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
then why are there so many warnings throughout the whole new testament? if the true church , witch i guess is the one paul writes to and all the others, no meaning write to the others who god dident choose. But why bother to write them and warn them if they cant lose their salvation?



because God said so.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/7 21:21Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

whyme wrote:
You don't believe God is omnicient?



God is omniscient. He knows everything that can be known. The decisions men will make in the future are not things that can be known.

Can God create a rock so big He can't lift it? No.

Can God know what decisions men will make before they make them? No.

Neither of these statements diminish God in any way. They simply affirm that God is [u]real[/u] and [u]logical[/u] and not the creation of men's imagination and irrationality.

I don't want to hijack this thread, so I won't discuss more here. If you want to discuss more, start a new thread with a title like, "Open Theism" or "God's omniscience and foreknowledge".

:-)


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/7 21:52Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

dear brothers and sisters,

i have been pondering something for hours now and i would like to ask this question. i perfer to not get super deep into the whole calvinism and non-calvinism debate, but i just have a simple qiuestion for you guys of the calvinism persuasion.

* can an unregenerate man place faith in Christ??

here is why i am asking. ephesians 2:8, 9 clearly tell us that we are saved by His grace and faith is the means (or vehicle) that brings His grace to us. i have heard many calvinists say multiple times that an unregenerate man cannot place faith in Christ and that man must first be born again (or made regenerate) to be able to place faith in Christ. so calvinism believes that one must be born again before one can place faith in Christ. that one must be born again before one is born again. you may disagree with that statement, but that is what you are saying.

please look at the verse again. the person being born again must first place faith in Christ and then God's grace saves the man as His spirit comes in and makes him a new creature. but calvinism says that the man must be born again before they can be saved by His grace. do you see this?? do you see that one must place faith in Christ before he can be saved by God's grace??

please do not try to switch subjects and talk about how you believe an unregenerate man could never place faith (trust) in God. please examine this basic verse about salvation and the actual order of it.

1) man places faith in Christ
2) man receives God's grace
3) man is saved (born again)

calvinism says..

1) man is regenerated (born again, made new)
2) man places faith in Christ
3) man is saved?? but he already was saved when he was born again.

do you see the contradiction?? if one is already regenerated, then he does not need to place faith in Christ and he would already be saved. but that totally denies the clear order of scripture concerning salvation..

like i said, i so not want to get into a ton of calvinism vs non-calvinism debate, i can careless about that. but please stick with this verse and take a deep honest look at it. please do not immediately run to another verse and disregard this one quickly, but stay on this verse for awhile.

love you guys and i hope that you let this simple verse bring forth the joy in your life as it has in mine.

*phil

 2007/9/7 22:30Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 don't you dare put that on God...

bro Nile
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
Because He doesn't know if they will respond or not. That's why He's warning them. If He knew they wouldn't listen, He wouldn't bother.



your frame of reference for answering this question is your own and not God's so really, [i][b]you[/b][/i] wouldn't know if the person would respond or not that's why you would warn them.so it is not because God doesn't know that He warns to see if anyone will respond, you only say that because that is your viewpoint. Furthermore bro Nile, it is not God who wouldn't bother warning people if He knew they wouldn't respond, it is YOU who would do that. God on the other hand knows the outcome and He warns out of Mercy. There are those to whom Grace has been given to respond and will so do and those who won't. At the end of the day, no man can say to God "i didn't get the memo" so no man will be able to dispute whatever he receives at the end of time be it Eternal Life or damnation. Also it highlight the desperate fallenness of man that due to our hard hearts we can't and won't respond to God except Grace be given us from above as it is written in Jophn chapt 6 and Romans 9.

now as for God warning men knowing that they will not respond to Him: let us look at Romans 1

[b]18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; F6 for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so F7 that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. 26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. 28 And even as they did not like to retain F8 God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; 29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, 30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
[/b]

men are without excuse because God has made Himself abundantly plain in what He has made. God also warns and chastens very plainly even knowing we are hard of hearing and slow to repent if we do as evidenced in Amos chapt 4:

[b]1 Hear this word, ye kine of Bashan, that are in the mountain of Samaria, which oppress the poor, which crush the needy, which say to their masters, Bring, and let us drink. 2 The Lord GOD hath sworn by his holiness, that, lo, the days shall come upon you, that he will take you away with hooks, and your posterity with fishhooks. 3 And ye shall go out at the breaches, every cow at that which is before her; and ye shall cast F13 them into the palace, saith the LORD. 4 Come to Bethel, and transgress; at Gilgal multiply transgression; and bring your sacrifices every morning, and your tithes after three F14 years: 5 And offer F15 a sacrifice of thanksgiving with leaven, and proclaim and publish the free offerings: for this liketh you, O ye children of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.6 And I also have given you cleanness of teeth in all your cities, and want of bread in all your places: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 7 And also I have withholden the rain from you, when there were yet three months to the harvest: and I caused it to rain upon one city, and caused it not to rain upon another city: one piece was rained upon, and the piece whereupon it rained not withered. 8 So two or three cities wandered unto one city, to drink water; but they were not satisfied: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 9 I have smitten you with blasting and mildew: when your gardens and your vineyards and your fig trees and your olive trees increased, the palmerworm devoured them: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 10 I have sent among you the pestilence after the manner of Egypt: your young men have I slain with the sword, and have taken away your horses; and I have made the stink of your camps to come up unto your nostrils: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 11 I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning: yet have ye not returned unto me, saith the LORD. 12 Therefore thus will I do unto thee, O Israel: and because I will do this unto thee, prepare to meet thy God, O Israel. 13 For, lo, he that formeth the mountains, and createth the wind, F16 and declareth unto man what is his thought, that maketh the morning darkness, and treadeth upon the high places of the earth, The LORD, The God of hosts, is his name.
[/b]

clearly our Lord warned here, harshly with various Judgments but the people wouldn't hear...i'm not sure if that is what that nonsense from the pit of hell called "open theism" would have us believe; that God is usure of the whole future. That is a sack of satan's own excrement right there being tossed about and some of the saints are eating it up and vomitting it on others. the word says God is Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End so He knows all from beginning to end.

Satan the Lord Rebuke you! This is the deal with Satan, because he himself isn't like God, Omniscient and Omniscience, Omnipotent and Omnipotence and Omnipresent and Omnipresence (thank you Father!) Satan tries to make himself appeal more to us by making God seem more like him by giving God limitations to make Him seem smaller. Satan by his lies and deceit tries to make God seem more like us and makes it seem that God thinks like we do and reasons like we do when we know very well from scripture that [i][b]His wasys are NOT like ours![/b][/i] and we know also from Paul this: [i][b]oh the depth of the Knowledge and Wisdom of God! Who has been His Counselor?[/b][/i] Seriously brethren, who can comprehend the mind of God when we know this of Him: [i][b]The Foolishness of God is greater than the wisdom of men and the weakness of God is greater than the strength of men[/b][/i]

Dear saints men often come up and say "well such and such in scripture has too many problems, so we belive God screwed up and this is what He meant" Never considering that the source of the problem is NOT scripture but the rotten wicked hearts of conceited men who have the gall, the intestinal fortitude given them by Satan himself to dare and say that God screwed up before considering that the problem may be a little closer to home. Dear saints this makes me mad...wherever there is a problem understanding the word, the problem is with us. That we can't understand why God would do something is just that, WE don't understand, it's not that God has messed up.

How desperately wicked we are as men to think such vile thoughts as these! these are truly from satan...that men would deify themselves and make God out to be one of us by thinking and saying and acting as though God is the one who messed up when we can't understand something. Dear saint should you [u][i][b]EVER[/b][/i][/u] find yourself thinking such vile thoughts, [u][i][b]RUN[/b][/i][/u] to God and seek forgiveness because such are of the devil and to continue to entertain such is to be lured into his snare.

let us be wary of his wiles and put on the whole armour of God so we can withstand in this evil day.AMEN.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/9/7 22:36Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Brother LoveHim,

The beginning of the chapter clearly states that man is dead, and must be made alive by God.
Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

There is no way a man that a dead man can live on his own.

Also this verse preceds verses 8,9-
Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

When we were dead, not when we had faith, but when we were dead. This echoes Romans 5 where it says, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us".

But coming back to Ephesians,
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

The grace mentioned is the animating or life giving force needed to stretch the once dead hand of faith to lay hold on Christ. The faith and the grace do not come from us, but rather are gifts from God Himself.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 23:14Profile





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