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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

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roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

Quote:
P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):



I don't really see the difference, God sustains all whom He calls, and brings them to glory.

Quote:
Jude 1: "... to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and PRESERVED in Jesus Christ..."



This in no way is contrary to anything within Calvinism.

Quote:
1 Thessalonians 5:23-24: "And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly: and I pray God your whole spirit and soul, and body be PRESERVED blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. "



Again, nothing to contradict Calvinism

Quote:
John 10:27-29: "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life: and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of my Fathers hand."



Yep, this is why we hold to assurance of the saint's salvation. If anything the author is establishing what Calvinists believe.

Quote:
Colossians 3:3-4: "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory."



Amen

Quote:
Hebrews 7:25: "Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them."



Ok, I do not see what the argument was, but no Calvinist would disagree with any of what was said. Since God begins the work, God sustains the work.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 [b]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Now to the conclusion....


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 13:23Profile
PreachParsly
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Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:

P = PERSEVERANCE (The Bible teaches preservation of the saints; not perseverance of the saints):





I don't really see the difference, God sustains all whom He calls, and brings them to glory.



I don't know the mind of this writer but most that make that distinction are saying that you can be a Christian and not live like it. In other words, you will be preserved no matter what you do- regardless if you persevere in the faith or not. In this mindset, you don't have to continue until the end to be saved. In theory, you could "make a decision" live holy for about 1 year, then live the rest of your life in adultery and still be saved since you are "preserved." Antinomianism.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/9/7 13:38Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: some Scriptures soundly refute the errors of the Calvinist TULIP:

Quote:
CONCLUSION:
Calvinism clearly errs from the teaching of the Word of God on all 5 points of it's TULIP. The logical conclusion of Calvinism is that God is an unfair respecter of persons who chooses people to salvation, not according to any standard that He established, but solely according to His will. This strikes at the love and justice of God, and rejects man's responsibility to choose and love his Creator.



Well hopefully by looking at Scriptures the author left out, we can see that this is not the case. God's will is the deciding factor in salvation-
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of [b]him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:[/b]

The author would have us believe that man must be free in order to have God be fair, or that man is somehow born neutral towards God. this however is not the case as "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies." Psalm 58:3.

Men are against God, and love sin, if left in this state, or left to find salvation on their own they would not, for how could a blind man see, or a dead man walk? it is the utmost mercy and grace of God that He gives life to anyone at all. God must be the one who authors and finishes our faith for in our natural hearts there is nothing but hatred for God and His ways.

Man is not neutral to be swayed either for God, or for self. he is rather pro-self, pro-sin, pro- satan from the womb.


Quote:
Proverbs 24:23: "... It is not good to have respect of persons in judgment."



And God does not, all is based upon Christ. God does not judge a man unfairly as no man can stand with any reason for acceptance before God.

All men are equally damned, so there is none better than another. God has mercy on whom He will, and it is His free choice to do so.

Quote:
Acts 10:34-35: "... Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him."



Notice the point is that God does not respect Jew over Gentile as the Jews believed God did. This has nothing to do with an idea of God favoring some men over others in regard to salvation.

Quote:
John 6:28-29: "... What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? ... This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.



Again the author uses what is favourable to his agenda, and leaves out the rest of the verse in this chapter-
John 6:36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:64 But [b]there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.[/b]
John 6:65 And he said, [b]Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.[/b]

Quote:
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."



See thoughts on Total Depravity for this.

My purpose in answering these points is not to "convert" anyone to Calvinism, but rather that we would see the great work of God in Christ.

I have struggled to come to grips with the cause and effect these doctrines, and it is difficult, but the Scriptures are true, and my own heart is deceitful. I am but a weak man who has a great Saviour.

Blessings to all, and to God be the glory!!!


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 13:42Profile
roaringlamb
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 Re:

Quote:
In other words, you will be preserved no matter what you do- regardless if you persevere in the faith or not. In this mindset, you don't have to continue until the end to be saved. In theory, you could "make a decision" live holy for about 1 year, then live the rest of your life in adultery and still be saved since you are "preserved."



Yet the one who is truly born of the Spirit will not abide in adultery, as God will chasten and rebuke him to bring about repentance and sanctification.

No one makes a "decision" for Christ, rather the decision was made in eternity past before the foundations of the Earth. Some may think that they have made a decision, and are thereby "born again", but this is not regeneration which is only worked by the Spirit.

I know of no Calvinists who would say a person could abide in sin without being grieved and crying out for greater sanctification, and be a true Christian.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 15:11Profile
hmmhmm
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 Re:

then why are there so many warnings throughout the whole new testament? if the true church , witch i guess is the one paul writes to and all the others, no meaning write to the others who god dident choose. But why bother to write them and warn them if they cant lose their salvation?


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/9/7 15:15Profile
roaringlamb
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 Re:

The same reason I would tell my child, "if you play in the street, or drink poison, you will have problems".

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

Many of the warnings especially in Hebrews are written to warn the audience not to turn from the sufficient sacrifice of Christ to either sacrifices or self righteousness. Galatians addresses this also, and say that the one who falls from grace is because they have looked to the Law as a means of righteousness.

Brother regardless of Theology, Christ alone is sufficient, and faith in Him fulfills God's requirements as His righteousness has been imputed to me. Thus far Calvinism, and Reformed Theology make Christ a complete Saviour who not only makes salvation possible, but actually saves people.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 16:09Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
I know of no Calvinists who would say a person could abide in sin without being grieved and crying out for greater sanctification, and be a true Christian.



I agree, Calvinist usually say that. What I was describing was not a Calvinist doctrine. Calvinist believe in perseverance of the saints- that they will continue in the faith. "Preservation of the saints" says it doesn't matter how you live, you will be kept from hell.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/9/7 16:24Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
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 Re:

I had never heard of that before. Funny how you move a couple letters around and... :-)


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 16:28Profile
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Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
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 Re:

Quote:
The same reason I would tell my child, "if you play in the street, or drink poison, you will have problems".

This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.



No one warns their child of something there child is not capable of doing.


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/7 16:29Profile
PreachParsly
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Posts: 2164
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 Re:

Quote:
This does not necessarily mean that my child now must go and do these things.

Many of the warnings especially in Hebrews are written to warn the audience not to turn from the sufficient sacrifice of Christ to either sacrifices or self righteousness.



If you were in an open field, would tell your child "now don't fall off that 1000ft bluff." Of course not, it is impossible to fall off a bluff when you are in an open field. For you to warm someone of something, you are implying there is a possibility of it happening.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/9/7 16:29Profile





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