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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Help please, does God only know some of the future?

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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 UGH...FROM THE BOWELS OF SATAN...

bro Nile Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
God does not know that I have a 12 year old son.Because I don't.



so how do you know? what kinda satanic nonsense is this?

now you said this:

Quote:
Likewise, God does know the decisions I will make in the future.



yes indeed he does, that's what you get for talking smack about God!i figure you probably meant to say that He doesn't know the decisions you will make...

so what does this mean then to you, i am curious...

from Romans 8:



[b] 28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[/b]

even if foreknowledge here means (and i don't agree with this coz it makes God out to be reactive to man) God knew ahead of time who would choose Him and chose them, your view is in opposition to scripture and this is why i maintain that it is from the bowels of the devil. how would you explain this forknowledge if God doesn't know what decisions men will make because they don't exist yet? how do you reconcile your view with what scripture testifies here?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/9/12 18:59Profile









 Re: UGH...FROM THE BOWELS OF SATAN...

Nile is definitely right on this one. God knows all objects of knowledge. God knows with certainty the aspects of the future that are certain, and God knows as possible the aspects of the future that are possible. God knows all of reality as it is. What is open God knows as open and what is settled God knows as settled.

Omniscience is knowing all objects of knowledge. Our freewill choices are contingent so God knows them as contingent, and when we make a determination God knows it as certain. The nature of objects of knowledge are subject to change.

 2007/9/12 19:11
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
God does not know that I have a 12 year old son.
Because I don't.

God does not know about the elephant in my room.
Because it doesn't exist.

Likewise, God does know the decisions I will make in the future.
Because they don't exist yet.




As far as I'm concerned none of that really has anything to do with knowledge. Knowledge deals with facts. How do you define knowledge? Your definition seems a little off to me.

Since you seem to be using philosophy, traditionally philosophy has thought that "knowledge" had to satisfy three requirements. It has to be justified, true, and believed. It doesn't line up. The things your saying that God doesn't know doesn't even belong in the area of knowledge unless your speaking of "possible worlds" or something. Then you would be speaking of the possibility of something being true, which God does know. I just thought I'd point out that I don't agree with your statement. :-D

God does know that you don't have a 12 year old son.

God does know about you not having an elephant in your room.

Likewise, God does know the decisions you will make in the future.

I realize that my conclusion makes a large jump since it goes from present events to future, but it's no different that what you just attempted.

--------------

Edit:

Quote:
God only knows things which are knowable



Everything you said that I quoted above is able to be known. It's known that it's false! I don't think your logic is proving anything.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/9/12 22:28Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
As far as I'm concerned none of that really has anything to do with knowledge. Knowledge deals with facts. How do you define knowledge? Your definition seems a little off to me.



When I say that, I mean that if it doesn't deal with knowledge you can't say God doesn't know it; so those statements make no sense.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/9/12 22:44Profile









 Re:

"God does know that you don't have a 12 year old son.

God does know about you not having an elephant in your room."

Likewise God knows what part of the future is open and God knows what part of the future is already determined.

What God has already determined is settled and what God let's us determine is not yet determined.

God knows what is possible and God knows what is settled.

God foreknows all the decisions that we could make. And God knows that our choices are contingent.

God knows we have the power of contingency and therefore the future is partly open:

[u]Jeremiah 18:710[/u] "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."

Jesus taught that the future was partly open and that certain events were contingent:

[u]Mt 26:53[/u] - "Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?"

Did not the prophet, who illustrated bondage to Paul using a belt, show that he believed the future was partly open when he persuaded with Paul not to go to Jerusalem? [u]Acts 21:11-12[/u]

 2007/9/12 22:58
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Omniscience is knowing all objects of knowledge. Our freewill choices are contingent so God knows them as contingent, and when we make a determination God knows it as certain. The nature of objects of knowledge are subject to change.


You are ignoring omnipotence and infinitude. There may be some things that God has chosen not to know. This explains some of the utterances of the Lord Jesus whilst on earth.

If there is any limit to God's power to know other than what he has chosen not to know he is not omnipotent neither is he infinite because he will need to add to what he knows as 'events become knowable'. If future events are 'beyond his power to know' his power is limited. If his power is limited he is neither omnipotent nor infinite.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/13 11:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Jeremiah 18:10 "At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them."


This is a vital passage of scripture in our understanding of prophecy. Prophecy is often conditional. Even when no conditions are listed they are often implied. Jonah told the Ninevites that their city would be destroyed in 40 days, but the principle of Jer 17 (though yet unuttered) was always at work.

[color=0033FF]Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death; (Acts 2:23 NKJV)[/color]
This passage holds together divine purpose and human culpability. Personally, I don't believe Calvinism does justice to this balance. Open theism, in its collision with Calvinism, tears them apart. God knows all that will be done and sometimes declares what will be done but his so declaring does not free the doers from their responsibility. They are not following a script.

All past, present and future rebellions of angels and men are known to God. Otherwise the atonement was a blank cheque. The high priest was required to confess all the sins of the nation over the scape goat. God made all sins to rest upon the Lamb.

[color=0033FF]All of us like sheep have wandered, Each to his own way we have turned, And Jehovah hath caused to meet on him, The punishment of us all. (Isaiah 53:6 YNG)[/color]

All sins were gathered together and caused to meet on Christ. If there was one sin of which God was ignorant he has not fulfilled the role of the high priest. The pattern of Yom Kippur was very specific about this.

[color=0033FF]Aaron shall lay both his hands on the head of the live goat, confess over it all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions, concerning all their sins, putting them on the head of the goat, and shall send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a suitable man. (Leviticus 16:21 NKJV)[/color]

The event of Calvary gathered together all sins, past, present and future and laid them upon the Lamb. If one sin were unknown to God, the atonement is fatally flawed.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/13 11:45Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 more than convinced this open theism is of the devil...

bro lazarus

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
Nile is definitely right on this one. God knows all objects of knowledge. God knows with certainty the aspects of the future that are certain, and God knows as possible the aspects of the future that are possible. God knows all of reality as it is. What is open God knows as open and what is settled God knows as settled.



you can believe that if you want to bro, i don't buy it. either God knows the whole future or not and i'm convinced of the former. Even in what is open which requires a response from us (such as in the case with Jonah and Nineveh) God knew that if they didn't repent He would certainly wipe out that city in 40 days. He knew also if they did repent, He would spare them for a time which He did. There is no such thing as uncertainty as it pertains to anything as far as God is concerned, now if you had said all this about the devil (from whose bowels i believe this notion is from) i'd go with that, if you said so about man, i'd be with you, but about God, no bro, that belief is not of God, Holy Spirit doesn't sanction such and i know for sure my spirit doesn't bear witness to it in anywise.

Quote:
Omniscience is knowing all objects of knowledge. Our freewill choices are contingent so God knows them as contingent, and when we make a determination God knows it as certain. The nature of objects of knowledge are subject to change.



an what of Omnipotence and Omnipresence, God being present in past present and future and having it all in hand?

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus. AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/9/13 21:57Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re: more than convinced this open theism is of the devil...

IRONMAN

I like you but...

I know that the Lord is not telling you to rebuke Satan the way you are doing because it is very clear that you are merely reacting to your inability to understand the logic behind what we are trying to show you. You're disgusted at Nile's theology and so you're trying to use an emotional attack and hide it under spirituality.

Which is quite a despicable thing to do.

You're not getting your rebuke from the spirit but from your limited understanding. You have spoken rashly and equated an understanding different than yours as equal to Peter telling Jesus not to be crucified.

Lord rebuke you, Satan.

I now refer you all to an interesting article:
http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic_pdf.php?topic_id=17954&forum=34.

Edit: But we all make mistakes, so I do forgive you, bro.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/9/14 0:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

The cross of Christ is God's righteous vindication of his own holiness and is a demonstration of holy love. Did Christ die for yours/our sins. As I am writing this in the 21st century it is obvious that I had not sinned any of my own sins when Christ died on Golgotha.

So did he bear my sins or didn't he? Did he bear them in principle or in actuality? Did he carry the sin of the world or just the sin of the preceding generations which were known to God. Can you see what folly open theism leads us into?

If my sins were part of the unknowable future the sacrifice of Calvary was accomplished 'ignorant' of my personal sin. There are not many options open to such a view.

Did Christ pick up some unknown bill that he paid so that, in that sense, I cannot say with Paul 'who loved me and died for me' for I was unknowable to God at that time, as was my sin. Christ only 'died for me' in the most general sense.

This is particularly pertinent to me as my first consciousness of God's dealing in my life was on this specific issue. I had always believed that Christ died for sins, in a general sort of a way. What arrested me was the understanding that he died for my sins and took my place, and that he had loved me from before the foundation of the earth.

[color=0033FF]I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
“Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. (John 17:23-24 NKJV)[/color]

If God loved me as he loved his Son, and he loved his Son before the foundation of the earth, then he loved me before the foundation of the earth. But according to 'open theology' my very existentence was an 'unknowable' at the time of Christ's death and the notion that he loved me before the foundation of the earth is just a pleasant fiction.

Open theism is not just an interesting sideline, it strikes at the very heart of revelation.

Every fact and actuality is known to God from the beginning to the end. It will not do to say bring in silly stories about the universe being supported by pink elephants. Such things are not actualities, neither in the past, the present of the future. God knows that it is not so and never will be so.

The open theists have found themselves trapped in a linear universe and they have concluded that God himself is trapped in the same time/space process, but God is not in time and space in the way that creatures are in time and space. Time and space are in Him, and the Spirit of God knows all that is in God. The future is in God now; He is the I AM, and consequently there is nothing that was or is or will be that is not known to him.

He knew my sin when he bore it on the cross. He bore today's sin and tomorrow's. Calvary will need no updates.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/14 5:05Profile





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