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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: For want of mystery

Quote:
2. It is a reaction to the mystery of prayer and our 'co-working' with God in the fulfillment of his purposes. This mystery cannot be explained by concluding that God needs our help. He has determined to accomplish certain things in fellowship with man, and such things will not be accomplished without fellowship with man. There is a simple passage of scripture which expresses the balance perfectly...



Like this better than the previous attempt at injecting this tremendous word back into our vernacular. Mine was more clunky and disjointed, but the word Mystery seems so far often out of place anymore that I felt compelled nonetheless, this topic a large part of reaction towards it.

Quote:
The best antidote to these current poisons is a good dose of A W Tozer!



You triggered something I have been thinking about doing for some time now. Thanks Ron.


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Mike Balog

 2007/9/8 17:07Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Open Theism? Straight out of the bowels of the devil...

bro Nile Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

i browsed through the article you cited...curiously it began with a word which doesn't describe anything God would have us do as His people..."imagine" in fact dear brother, each time the word "imagine" is used in scripture, the context is ALWAYS negative, that is in opposition to God or the man of God or the people of God so from jump, that's bad business right there. There is talk of imagining vain things, wicked things, mischief and so on; also that imaginings are things which God hates whether they are plots or ideas being tossed about and this whole open theism deal is vain, wicked and quite mischievous just like it's author Satan who is a liar and the father of all lies. to imagine implies loosing your mind and letting it run which is in contrast to the exhortation Paul gives us to hold each thought captive and make it conform to Christ...

do a search on the word "imagine" throughout the scriptures and see for yourself.

also look up imaginations in scripture and see what the word has to say about that word.

Romans 1 vs 21 says:


[b]21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, 23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. [/b]

so what shall we say bro Nile? is God not to be Glorified as God being All-Knowing and indeed All Knowledge? to fail to see this and cop out is to fail to be thankful for this Attribute of God which allows for Him to preserve us through this life and to work all things out for our good since we Love Him and are called according to His Purpose. This unthankfulness is of the devil and leads to vain imaginings such as these and the darkenening of one's heart and when one thinks himself wise he becomes a fool as bro Pratney has become on this matter and as have you also. what this doctrine has done is made the Omniscience of God into something like unto an animal's knowledge or like man's knowledge and understanding of things. This is to say you and others of this same school of thought have dimished the Omniscience of God and likened it to your own corruptible limited understanding, humanizing God and deifying yourselves and that is what Satan does.

however i praise God that He sais this to us in 2 Corinthians 10:

[b]3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;) 5 Casting down imaginations, F25 and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. [/b]

praise God for this! The enemy from the beginning wanted to exalt himself above the Throne of God (see in Isaiah and Ezekiel on the king of Babylon and Prince of Tyre respectively) and so it follows that his thoughts and imaginings and reasonings are designed to make God appear smaller and himself larger and this appeals to man who in his fallen state thinks more of himself than he ought and so needs to die. Bless God that the weapons of the Christian are designed to undo strongholds and vain imaginings like this one which seek to exalt themselves above God and also place satan and man on par with or above God in exalting these 2 or bringing down (trying to anyway) God. Those thoughts need to be held down and made to conform to Christ and not run wild and form a wicked system of belief such as this that God doesn't know the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning especially when He says He IS the Beginning and the End. The word of God is such that it can refute and tear down these vain imaginings so that no man is left with any excuse.

to some of the questions you asked:

Quote:
Why does God ever use the word "if"?



God doesn't use the word "if" in the sense of being unsure of anything but in the sense of KNOWING all possible outcomes. So "if" we repented, "then" He would forgive us, "if we the people called by His Name would humble ourselves and repent, then He will hear from Heaven and HEal our land. we on the other hand use that word with a sense of uncertainty of what is to come in a way which is clearly human but yet we try and ascribe it to God and that won't do.

Quote:
Why was God sorry He had made man (before the flood)? If God knew He would be sorry, He wouldn't have made man.



because He was hurt, His Heart was wounded by our wickedness. that God knew what would happen and yet was hurt is to be expected. Have you ever seen or heard of a fight in which someone pleaded 'please don't hit me" when the aggressor's hand was already raised and the victim knew it was coming? that doesn't change the pain of blow, it hurts just as much as if it were a complete surprise.

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Why does God create people whom He knows will suffer in Hell forever?



why would He not? is His effort a waste? of course not! This is not about men and women but about the Glory of God Forever which is something beyond the scope of creation and humankind. We like to think much of ourselves but dear saints it's about Him and the Revelation of His Glory and Manifold Wisdom to the powers of the air and a part of that is their own punishment and that of the men who followed their ways, in this they acknowledge the Severity of God and His Justice.

Quote:
Why does God act all throughout the Bible as if He is in time like we are?



because time is His Toy. He is not bound by it but works in and out of it because it is His to with whatever He wishes.He works in it because we are in time and yet He has things going on in the real of Eternity which are beyond what we know now.

Quote:
Did you know that I was elected...by NC State to go to their school? That's right. And it didn't take divine impossible foreknowledge either.I was also predestined from the foundation of the school to attend NC State. I am the exact type of them that are predestined to the school: High GPA, AP credits, High SAT.



but nothing happens outside of or apart from God's Knowledge or Consent because it is all about HIM.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/9 17:22Profile
HopePurifies
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Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re: Open Theism? Straight out of the bowels of the devil...

To say that open theism is "straight out of the bowels of the devil" shows that you may not know the position very well.
First and foremost, open theists believe that God knows all things, too. We just believe that many aspects of the future do not exist yet because of the nature of a free-will universe (which God gloriously created).

Quote:
God doesn't use the word "if" in the sense of being unsure of anything but in the sense of KNOWING all possible outcomes. So "if" we repented, "then" He would forgive us, "if we the people called by His Name would humble ourselves and repent, then He will hear from Heaven and HEal our land.



Amen. (Yes, I'm pulling a strawman out of your post) This is exactly what we are saying. Our choices do not catch God by surprise as in "Wow, I didn't know that man could do that!" However, until the future happens, the choice hasn't been made, and does not exist to be known.

Nile's NC state illustration was to show that the calvinist/determinist understanding of predestination and election might not be what was intended by the writers of scripture. See the interplay between Nile's freewill choices to do well in school to meet the requirements, and NC States sovereignty and knowledge which caused them to admit Nile.

Back to the original post- God "learning" does strike a weird note in me. In a sense He is learning, but in another sense He isn't. He isn't learning new ways to deal with things or new ways to behave, He is merely learning what actions men and other freewill creatures (angels?) make.


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Melanie

 2007/9/9 19:14Profile
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 yeah, straight out of the bowels of the devil

bro Hopepurifies
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

Quote:
First and foremost, open theists believe that God knows all things, too. We just believe that many aspects of the future do not exist yet because of the nature of a free-will universe (which God gloriously created).



sure i believe in free will, however i believe for the most part our understanding of it is very bad. that you would say many aspects of the future don't exist because man hasn't made decisions strikes me as a rather humanistic/man-centred explanation of something beyond our understanding. i believe the idea that God is in total control is very unnerving to men because it lets us know we are at His Mercy and we don't like that...even the idea that God has predestined all things is disturbing...perhaps even more so for the same reason. Now before anyone gets to trippin or jumpin up and down, let this be clear, i believe man has free will, it is wrapt up in the confines of the Sovereign Will of God in accordance to His Plan to Glorify Himself Forever. i believe that Simultaneously, God has pre-ordained all things so it is not a matter of "predestination vs free will" but it is both. There is scripture to support both views so God isn't confused about it and thanks to Him, neither am i. The either/or mentality comes out of men not wanting to acknowledge the validity of the opposing view and admitting they were wrong or only part right.

Quote:
Amen. (Yes, I'm pulling a strawman out of your post) This is exactly what we are saying. Our choices do not catch God by surprise as in "Wow, I didn't know that man could do that!" However, until the future happens, the choice hasn't been made, and does not exist to be known.



in YOUR mind until the future happens the choice hasn't been made so it doesn't exist for YOU to know.Don't you dare put your shortcomings on God. For God, His Forknowing of things isn't contingent on anything we would consider, God is not "like us" God is Other...He doesn't need to come up on the future like we do to know it, He wrote the whole deal. God created from nothing yet He knew what He would create and how it would all turn out beforehand. i really believe this whole open theism is of the devil because he himself has the limitations (as does man) which this wicked system is trying to tag on God...

Quote:
Nile's NC state illustration was to show that the calvinist/determinist understanding of predestination and election might not be what was intended by the writers of scripture. See the interplay between Nile's freewill choices to do well in school to meet the requirements, and NC States sovereignty and knowledge which caused them to admit Nile.



see, the word is plain on this, God predestined. The word is also plain on this, that we have free will and the problem is most of us see the one side and gravitate to one more than the other when like in scripture, really it is both working for that Eternal Purpose, the Glory of God forever.

God made it so we would participate with Him on this (hence free will) but we must realize that this is about Him and so He has determined that ALL things would work out to the end that He be Glorified...Forever.

Quote:
Back to the original post- God "learning" does strike a weird note in me. In a sense He is learning, but in another sense He isn't. He isn't learning new ways to deal with things or new ways to behave, He is merely learning what actions men and other freewill creatures (angels?) make.



how does He who is All Knowledge and Learning "learn" anything when He is the thing in and of Himself already? :-?

The ways of God are beyond what we can comprehend given the limitations of our minds and man doesn't like to be outdone...especially by God.mmm that sounds like another character in this whole saga...

certainly this is out of Satan's bowels...noboby but him would come up with something so vile, poisonous and pernicious and yet so subtle and seemingly logical...Satan the Lord rebuke you!

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/9 23:21Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
First and foremost, open theists believe that God knows all things, too. We just believe that many aspects of the future do not exist yet because of the nature of a free-will universe (which God gloriously created).


No they don't; they believe that God knows all things that are knowable. God being infinite has infinite capacity and infinite power. Just because they 'do not exist yet' in our perspective of space and time does not mean that they are not known to God.


Quote:
Amen. (Yes, I'm pulling a strawman out of your post) This is exactly what we are saying. Our choices do not catch God by surprise as in "Wow, I didn't know that man could do that!" However, until the future happens, the choice hasn't been made, and does not exist to be known.


What do open-theists do with this verse...?
[color=0033FF]I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. (Isaiah 48:5 KJVS)[/color]

What you have written here ...'until the future happens... (it) does not exist to be known...' is in direct opposition to the word of God through Isaiah.

Open-theists are following in the steps of ancient Israel...

[color=0033FF]Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel. (Psalms 78:41 KJVS)[/color]

..the god of the open-theists is just too small.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/10 9:18Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

philogos, you simply do not understand the open theist position.

Quote:
Omniscience does not mean 'knowing all that CAN be known'; that is a diluted definition of omniscience. Omni = all, without mitigation. Either God knows all or he doesn't . If he doesn't know ALL he is not omniscient. ALL does not mean "all that there is to know", it means all.



This is just so silly. You're defining "all" in the most absurd way.

Do you believe God knows things that God cannot know? Yes or No?

If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.
If you say yes, you have created a logical impossibility that does not exist.

Does God know that pink elephants run the universe? Yes or No?

If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.
If you say yes...lol.

Quote:
I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them. (Isaiah 48:5 KJVS)



It means God has declared the end from the beginning. The exact choices of each individual are not necessary to know to know the end from the beginning. This isn't rocket science.

Quote:
What you have written here ...'until the future happens... (it) does not exist to be known...' is in direct opposition to the word of God through Isaiah.



No.

Quote:
..the god of the open-theists is just too small.



philogos, can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it?

If you say no, then then you're attack on open theism is a vain and hypocritical: "The god of philogos is so small and tiny! He can't even create a rock so big he can't lift it!"

If you say yes, then there are other things to discuss before dealing with open theism.


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/10 12:07Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
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 Re:

Quote:
Do you believe God knows things that God cannot know? Yes or No?




Nile, could you please give an example of something God cannot know?

 2007/9/10 12:59Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This is just so silly. You're defining "all" in the most absurd way.

Do you believe God knows things that God cannot know? Yes or No?

If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.
If you say yes, you have created a logical impossibility that does not exist.

Does God know that pink elephants run the universe? Yes or No?

If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.
If you say yes...lol.


This is just nonsense. There are no things that God cannot know, consequently your question is absurd. How could a God who knows everything not know anything?

Quote:
Does God know that pink elephants run the universe? Yes or No?


this is not knowledge it is speculation. If you cannot distinguish between fact and speculation...?

Quote:
It means God has declared the end from the beginning. The exact choices of each individual are not necessary to know to know the end from the beginning. This isn't rocket science.


It isn't any kind of science, it is philosophical mumbo-jumbo. This verse plainly says that God knows things 'before they come to pass'. You say that until the future happens it does not exist..to be known. Does God know the future before it happens or doesn't he?

Quote:
philogos, can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it?


Don't you know that there is nothing an infinitely powerful God cannot do, other than what he has deciced not to do? You are asking 'can God create something which is greater than himself'. There can be nothing greater than God; everything is in him and by him and for him.

To accuse me of potential hypocrisy is foolish. A hypocrite is an actor, someone who pretends to be what he is not. In my confidence in an infinite, omnipotent, omniscient God... I am no hypocrite.

Quote:
philogos, you simply do not understand the open theist position.


I understand sufficient of the position to know that it is inconsistent with biblical revelation.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/9/10 13:39Profile
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 From he Bowels of Satan i tell you...

bro Nile

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you said:

Quote:
philogos, you simply do not understand the open theist position.



bro Nile, it seems to me you don't understand the POsition of Scripture which is the Position of God which is the only Position of any consequence not only in this matter but in ALL matters.


Quote:
Do you believe God knows things that God cannot know? Yes or No?



what in all creation does this mean? is there anything God in His Infinite Wisdom and Knowledge which can be unknown to Him? Maybe at your house you believe such but bro that is a lie from the devil because there are things unknown to him. so no i don't believe there is anything outside of what God Knows for He knows all in Totality. that question you asked bro is foolish and the stuff of the heathen who wish to discredit God.

Quote:
If you say no, you admit that God does not know "ALL" things.



God Knows all things. End of story.


Quote:
If you say yes, you have created a logical impossibility that does not exist.



do you know things you can't know?

Quote:
Does God know that pink elephants run the universe? Yes or No?



Satan the Lord rebuke you!

Quote:
It means God has declared the end from the beginning. The exact choices of each individual are not necessary to know to know the end from the beginning. This isn't rocket science.



uh no bro, the implication is that God declared the end from the beginning and so the sequence of events inbetween leads to the end so if He knows the end, He knows everything inbetween too.

Quote:
philogos, can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it?



Satan the Lord rebuke you! What is there that God can't do if He wants to. Nothing is impossible.

Quote:
If you say no, then then you're attack on open theism is a vain and hypocritical: "The god of philogos is so small and tiny! He can't even create a rock so big he can't lift it!"



Open Theism itself is a vain and wicked things from the bowels of him who is the very embodiment of vanity and hypocrisy, Satan the devil himself.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/9/11 0:19Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Michael,

Quote:
Nile, could you please give an example of something God cannot know?



God does not know that I have a 12 year old son.
Because I don't.

God does not know about the elephant in my room.
Because it doesn't exist.

Likewise, God does know the decisions I will make in the future.
Because they don't exist yet.

Realize that this in no way limits God's power. God has infinite intelligence and skill. He knows the thoughts and hearts of men perfectly. He knows with a high degree of certainty what every man will do; He does not know 100% however, because our decisions are truly free and are uncreated before we make them.


philogos, God only knows things which are knowable. To say otherwise is to abandon the English language and contradict the first law of logic.

To say that future decisions cannot be known in NO WAY reduces God's omniscience. No one is arguing that God does not know all things - all things that can be known!

That was the point of my examples and questions.

...

A cannot be A and non-A at the same time in the same sense.

Something is either:
Knowable - able to be known.
-OR-
Unknowable - not able to be known.

God knows x.
Therefore x is knowable.

y is unknowable.
Therefore God is not able to know y.

[b]z is unknowable.
God still knows z.
Therefore z is unknowable and knowable.[/b]

A contradiction. This seems to be what you are saying, correct me if I'm wrong.

This is what I am saying:

[i]The future decisions of men are unknowable.
Therefore God is not able to know the future decisions of men.[/i]

This is merely an affirmation that God cannot know things which are unknowable.

...

Quote:
This verse plainly says that God knows things 'before they come to pass'. You say that until the future happens it does not exist..to be known. Does God know the future before it happens or doesn't he?



Hopefully I can explain so that you understand the open theist position.

The future is mostly certain and partly uncertain.
God knows:
-Every possible thing that can happen, for He has all knowledge.
-The movements of every atom in the universe, for He has all knowledge.
-The date when any man will die, for He controls this.
-The end of the earth, for He controls this.
-The events of any man's day, for He controls this.
-The weather, for He controls it.
-Sickness and disease, for He controls them.
-Where I will place my foot before I place it, for He would know the moment I decided to move my foot and would know the exact movement of my foot.
-My words before I speak them, for His knowledge extends even to the heart and mind of men, thus being able to know my words before I speak them.
The list goes on and on.

The one thing that God does not know is how His creation will respond to their Creator. This was His purpose in creating man: to have a creation that would freely choose Him over themselves.

Quote:
Don't you know that there is nothing an infinitely powerful God cannot do, other than what he has deciced not to do?


Why doesn't He do what He hasn't decided to do?
Do you see my point? Knowing it or not, you have just used the argument I have been using.
God can only do what He decides to do by logical necessity. This is analogous to my argument before.

If you're going to claim that God can know things which are unknowable then you might as well claim that God does things which He hasn't decided to do.

Quote:
You are asking 'can God create something which is greater than himself'. There can be nothing greater than God; everything is in him and by him and for him.


Yes, I am asking that and the answer is obviously no. Once again, God can do anything, with the obvious implicit implication of anything being "anything that can be done".

Quote:
To accuse me of potential hypocrisy is foolish. A hypocrite is an actor, someone who pretends to be what he is not. In my confidence in an infinite, omnipotent, omniscient God... I am no hypocrite.


This was the context:
Quote:

philogos, can God create a rock so big He cannot lift it?

If you say no, then then you're attack on open theism is a vain and hypocritical: "The god of philogos is so small and tiny! He can't even create a rock so big he can't lift it!"


You would be a hypocrite in the fact that you use tell me I can't use a certain argument which you yourself use. I'm not sure what the proper name for the logical flaw is, but hypocrite sounded right. I don't mean to accuse you, but only to point out the self-contradictions. I apologize if it was taken wrong.

With hope,
Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/11 9:35Profile





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