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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Calvin's doctrine and Romans 1

The word of God found in Scriptures teaches us in Romans 1 and Proverbs 1 that God leaves no man without excuse...

Do you hear? Are you willing to sumbit to Scripture?

Romans 1

:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Rom 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse,



Paul recieved this precept from Scripture that is found in Proverbs 1.

Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:


Pro 1:21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],


Pro 1:22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?


Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.


The first question comes to mind...

What is the source of this "wisdom"?


The second question comes to mind...

By what means is this "wisdom" conveyed to man?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/6 21:08Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re: Calvin's doctrine and Romans 1

Continuing on in this precept which Paul found in Proverbs...

Romans 1:

21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

Rom 1:22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Rom 1:23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man--and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,

Now search this Scripture to "hear" what Paul heard...

Proverbs 1:

Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

Pro 1:25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

Pro 1:26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;

Pro 1:27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.

Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.



Again especially compare these thoughts of Paul with Solomon's


Rom 1:24 Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves.

Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
earts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves,


First question, can you find in Proverbs what it means to men when God gives them up?

Second question what does it mean to us when Scripture says that men...

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Third question, according to the Scriptures above what was God's part in each individuals life?

Fouth question, according to the Scripture above, what did many men "choose to do in light of God's counsel?"

In Christ
Jeff




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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/6 21:25Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Continuing on in Proverbs...

Pro 2:1 ¶ My son, if thou wilt receive my words, and hide my commandments with thee;

Pro 2:2 So that thou incline thine ear unto wisdom, [and] apply thine heart to understanding;

Pro 2:3 Yea, if thou criest after knowledge, [and] liftest up thy voice for understanding;

Pro 2:4 If thou seekest her as silver, and searchest for her as [for] hid treasures;

Pro 2:5 Then shalt thou understand the fear of the LORD, and find the knowledge of God.

Pro 2:6 For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth [cometh] knowledge and understanding.

Pro 2:7 He layeth up sound wisdom for the righteous: [he is] a buckler to them that walk uprightly.

Pro 2:8 He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.

Pro 2:9 Then shalt thou understand righteousness, and judgment, and equity; [yea], every good path.

Pro 2:10 When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;

Pro 2:11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:


Paul teaches this precept in Romans 1:

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[fn1] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.

Rom 1:17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, "The just shall live by faith."[fn2]


As Paul says...as it is written...

Do you see Christ our wisdom given to us by the Holy Spirit is the means by which the "righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith."

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/6 21:37Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Finally, if you allow these precepts found in Scripture, inspired by the Holy Spirit, to penetrate your hearts...how does this compare to the doctrines of a man named Calvin?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/6 21:39Profile
intrcssr83
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Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

There are sufficient signs out there within creation that should point fallen man in the direction of his creator. Obviously, these things are ignored as the sinful nature seperates us from God and hence we cannot see his work for what it really is.

A lot of people (specifically secular scholars and pluralists) point to the world's religions and say that this is an evidence of mankind's latent desire and ability to perceive the divine. Yet what Paul says in response within Romans 1 is the opposite: Religion is not a sign of man's ability to comprehend the divine, rather it is a sign of just how far removed he is from knowing the one true God.

God has given man a concience, and it should be sufficient to convict man of his sins:
12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. Romans 2:12-16

The human concience should lead to knowledge of sin and lead us to the savior, yet Paul later writes in Romans 3:9-20

9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13 “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14 “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 in their paths are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of peace they have not known.”
18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

So while man was originally designed to perceive the Work of God in creation and know God's standard of righteousness, he obviously doesn't know now in his fallen state. Therefore the question that has to be asked is how is it that we as believers acquire this knowledge and are led to saving faith. Is the process merely intellectual; that we all deep down possess some innate connection to God that we all must relearn how to cling on to, or is it by a work of divine intervention that corrects an obvious flaw, giving us ability to understand what we were originally designed for?


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Benjamin Valentine

 2007/9/6 22:33Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Benjamin wrote:

Quote:
So while man was originally designed to perceive the Work of God in creation and know God's standard of righteousness, he obviously doesn't know now in his fallen state.



Scripture states this about God's activity in all men....

Proverbs 1:

23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,


28 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.

But what about those who choose God because He calls all men....

33 But whoever listens to me will dwell safely,
And will be secure, without fear of evil.”

Proverbs 2

6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,

One man disdains God's counsel another heeds it. Faith comes by hearing the word of God...

Brother look more closely to what these Scriptures are saying. By what means does God preserve His saints?

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/7 1:00Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Brother look more closely to what these Scriptures are saying. By what means does God preserve His saints?



By Christ and His intercession for them. Consider 1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of him are ye in [b]Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:[/b]"


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/7 1:06Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Brother Patrick wrote:

Quote:
By Christ and His intercession for them. Consider 1 Corinthians 1:30 "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:"



Yes.

Would you say that the "wisdom" that is spoken of in Proverbs comes from Christ through the Holy Spirit?

20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.


Also
Proverbs 3

11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor detest His correction;
12 For whom the LORD loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
13 Happy is the man who finds wisdom,
And the man who gains understanding;
14 For her proceeds are better than the profits of silver,
And her gain than fine gold.
15 She is more precious than rubies,
And all the things you may desire cannot compare with her.
16 Length of days is in her right hand,
In her left hand riches and honor.
17 Her ways are ways of pleasantness,
And all her paths are peace.
18 She is a tree of life to those who take hold of her,
And happy are all who retain her.

Also...

Proverbs 8

Prov. 8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.



In relation to the last verse above, "I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge and discretion." I believe Paul writes of this in 1 Corinthians 2:

1Cor. 2:9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

The Spirit of God searches the deep things of God. And Christ is the summation of all wisdom given to man. He is the light of the world....




Prov. 9:10 “The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.



Just some things to ponder Brother Patrick...

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/7 2:28Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:



Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:

Pro 1:29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:

Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.


First according to Scripture we find that God is active in each individual's life. Secondly we find that many refuse to repent and turn towards Him. And then finally, there comes a point where God "give them over."

According to Scripture, what does it mean to an individual who God gives up on?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/10 7:23Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4794


 Re:

Quote:
First according to Scripture we find that God is active in each individual's life. Secondly we find that many refuse to repent and turn towards Him. And then finally, there comes a point where God "give them over."

According to Scripture, what does it mean to an individual who God gives up on?



The first part of the answer is that God is dispensing His grace through the work of the Holy Spirit to all men. He is calling all to repent. Without the Holy Spirit dwelling amongst men, men would have no hope of knowing "the knowledge of good" that is spoken of in Genesis 4.

The second part of the answer then is if God removes His Holy Spirit, what is the rebellious man left with?

Is it not again according to Genesis 4, "knowledge of evil"?

This precept is found in Romans 1, and Proverbs 1-9.

Job 34

10 “Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
12 Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.

He repays man according to his work and makes man to find a reward according to his way.

In Christ
jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/9/13 1:35Profile





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