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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is Calvinism for reaching the Lost or Reaching the Saved?

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Blunt
Member



Joined: 2007/3/14
Posts: 50


 Re:

Well that was encouraging....Moving on.

 2007/9/6 15:27Profile
Blunt
Member



Joined: 2007/3/14
Posts: 50


 Re:

Boy this thread took a dive.

 2007/9/6 15:31Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Sadly though [b]the majority of Calvinists are not saved,[/b] they know nothing more of the kingdom of God then the pharisees. (That goes for arminians and all other professing Christians too)



To which I replied
Care to elaborate on this. As you have now said that I am not saved, nor was Spurgeon, Luther, Tyndale, Edwards, Knox, Calvin, John Owen, Francis Schaeffer, and a vast cloud of men who did great things for God because they saw Him being the Animator and Sustainer of all things.

Now the second question was in the realm of seeing God's sovereignty over all things, not putting words or questions into anyone's mouths.
Here is the second question, I apologize that I was not clearer in my presentation which lead to some confusion.
And may I ask, how could Romans 8:28 be true if God is not completely Sovereign over all that goes into His childrens' life?


But now you say this
Quote:
I never said that.. see how your gung ho theological warfare attitude clouds your reasoning?



So I must ask if this is in reference to the souls of Calvinist's or if it was in response to the Romans 8:28 question. Perhaps my lack of clarity lead to this, so I must ask.

Every blessing to you brother.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 15:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:

running2win wrote:
Blunt, I've also noticed that there seems to be a strong obligation on the part of the calvinists to endoctrinate the rest of christianity. I still haven't figured out why it is that they have such a stong agenda to propagate their theology. But it is obviously there. I don't despise my calvinist brothers either. George Whitefield is my biggest hero of the faith. Along with Edwards, Spurgeon and the reformers. But I just don't understand why they sense such a need to fix everyone else's "bad" theology. Why can't we as the body of Christ just enjoy fellowshipping with each other without hammering on each other's beliefs? To me this is a very perplexing problem. :-( :-?

Some thoughts on this:

Most doctrines, such as Calvinism, seem to arise because of a reaction against a [i]false[/i] doctrine or practice. A reaction that may go too far in the opposite direction and may [i]itself[/i] become a false doctrine.

So the pendulum swings from side to side of Truth, perhaps missing the heart of it altogether?

An example (besides Calvinism, though many Reformed people also take this view)is when someone is caught up in "hyper-charismania", then sees the error and deception in it. He may then overreact and will have nothing to do with even the right use of spiritual gifts, claiming they are ALL from Satan. (A few mental gymnastics easily convince him that the true gifts ceased with the apostles, so any modern expressions [i]have to[/i] be counterfeit!)

Another reason for holding an extreme form of a teaching such as Calvinism may be personal experience. Someone like Luther for example, who (as a monk) desperately tried to make himself holy by penances, good works, self-flagellation, fanatic obedience to his superiors.

Then the Lord opened his eyes to the fact that it is by faith not works or deliberate striving or self-inflicted suffering that we please God.

But he was blind to other aspects of Truth, so much so that he rejected the epistle of James because it speaks of the expression of our salvation through righteous acts!

Many modern Calvinists are probably reacting against liberalism, experientialism and other "wooly" forms of theology - that rely heavily on "good works" or the excuse (a half-truth) that "love" and "tolerance" are more important than doctrine.

The cry, "Why can't we all just love each other?" only increases most Calvinist's resistance because of being so aware of and on guard against this error. It makes little difference if the person making this appeal in no way promotes good works as a means to attain salvation or please God. The knee jerk reaction is often too strong to appreciate this fact.

Maybe that partly explains it?

Jeannette

 2007/9/6 15:47









 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Salvation is a person, and His name is Jesus Christ.



And I do not know any Calvinist who would disagree with you, but the problem is that if a person is an Arminian, they do not believe that Christ alone saves a man. It must be Christ plus my good works that assure me of Heaven. Because Arminian belief is that Christ only made salvation possible, or wiped the slate clean , and now man must keep it clean.

Because so few truly know what Arminianism teaches, or where it cam from they assume that it must be true because it "feels" right, and makes God a very diplomatic God in that he offers salvation to everyone, and values everyones' opinions.

At the end of the day, if one would study the similarities between Arminianism and Roman Catholicism, they would see why there are Protestants, and why men and women died for the doctrines of justification by faith alone through Christ alone by God's grace alone to the glory of God alone as seen in Scripture alone.

Do all Armenians reject the concept of "justification by faith"?

Do you label anyone who isn't a Calvinist as an "Armenian"? I'm not a Calvinist, but I believe the doctrine of justification by faith; and also [i]sanctification[/i] by faith. But that doesn't mean I don't seek to obey the Lord and work out the salvation that God has inworked.

What label would you put on those of us who are neither Calvinist nor Armenian?

At least I don't [i]think[/i] I'm an Armenian... ;-)


Blessings


Jeannette)

 2007/9/6 15:56









 Re:

Quote:
To which I replied
Care to elaborate on this. As you have now said that I am not saved, nor was Spurgeon, Luther, Tyndale, Edwards, Knox, Calvin, John Owen, Francis Schaeffer, and a vast cloud of men who did great things for God because they saw Him being the Animator and Sustainer of all things.




I want to make it perfectly clear I NEVER said that you weren't saved. I was a bit tounge in cheek with my comment, to prove a point that most professing Christians are not saved, regardless of calvinism or arminianism. I guess i wrote it that way to provoke a reaction, that you might see that I am more concerned with the reality of someones walk then with their doctrinal beliefs on election. Sorry that it came across as condemning you personally for your beliefs.

I do believe that a few people who cling to both camps will go to heaven, but the majority will not. This is inline with Christs teachings that few will be able to entre in though many will try. (and our personal view on the doctrine of election is not the deciding factor)


Quote:
So I must ask if this is in reference to the souls of Calvinist's or if it was in response to the Romans 8:28 question. Perhaps my lack of clarity lead to this, so I must ask.



I meant that I never said all Calvinists are going to hell, again, I was only singeling out Calvinists to keep in tone with the conversation, I could have easily replaced the word Calvinists with Nazarines or Pentacostals and the statement would have been true.

As far as Romans 8, I probably 95% agree with your view of scripture from what I see, though I will not dismiss other scriptures that an Arminian would use to "prove you wrong"... does that sound like double talk?


Quote:
Every blessing to you brother.



You to, sorry again if you thought I was questioning your salvation because of your theology. I hope I cleared that up, I have a bad habit of writing in haste.

love in Christ - Jim

 2007/9/6 16:04
Blunt
Member



Joined: 2007/3/14
Posts: 50


 Re:

Good Thought's....

 2007/9/6 16:22Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You are wrong on both accounts. Please listen to Regenaration and True Christian Unity by Brother Paul and Counterfit Spirituality by David Wilkerson.



Not that it really matters, but please don't take my word for it.

You can hear Paul Washer for yourself. At his 2006 Heartcry Missions Conference he says that Theological training (the teaching of sound doctrine) is the most important need on the mission field.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9024635707943493017&q=HeartCry+Mission+Presentation+2006&total=1&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

 2007/9/6 16:34
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
by LittleGift on 2007/9/7 6:47:28

Some thoughts on this:

Most doctrines, such as Calvinism, seem to arise because of a reaction against a false doctrine or practice. A reaction that may go too far in the opposite direction and may itself become a false doctrine.

So the pendulum swings from side to side of Truth, perhaps missing the heart of it altogether?

An example (besides Calvinism, though many Reformed people also take this view)is when someone is caught up in "hyper-charismania", then sees the error and deception in it. He may then overreact and will have nothing to do with even the right use of spiritual gifts, claiming they are ALL from Satan. (A few mental gymnastics easily convince him that the true gifts ceased with the apostles, so any modern expressions have to be counterfeit!)



I'm charismatic myself and I've seen this happen upfront. It's not pretty because the reaction is indeed emotional rather than genuinely spiritual in nature.

Quote:
by LittleGift on 2007/9/7 6:47:28

Another reason for holding an extreme form of a teaching such as Calvinism may be personal experience. Someone like Luther for example, who (as a monk) desperately tried to make himself holy by penances, good works, self-flagellation, fanatic obedience to his superiors.

Then the Lord opened his eyes to the fact that it is by faith not works or deliberate striving or self-inflicted suffering that we please God.

But he was blind to other aspects of Truth, so much so that he rejected the epistle of James because it speaks of the expression of our salvation through righteous acts!



I also think that in today's context, there is a discontent among those who are seeing the corruption and lack of holiness within the modern church and simply want answers.


Quote:
by LittleGift on 2007/9/7 6:47:28

Many modern Calvinists are probably reacting against liberalism, experientialism and other "wooly" forms of theology - that rely heavily on "good works" or the excuse (a half-truth) that "love" and "tolerance" are more important than doctrine.

The cry, "Why can't we all just love each other?" only increases most Calvinist's resistance because of being so aware of and on guard against this error. It makes little difference if the person making this appeal in no way promotes good works as a means to attain salvation or please God. The knee jerk reaction is often too strong to appreciate this fact.

Maybe that partly explains it?

Jeannette



You hit the nail right on the head, sister. But I think the real issue is one of maturity rather than genuine unity.
I've often noticed personally that when I try to raise an issue of doctrine before others, those in your immediate fellowship that are first to use the "Why can't we all just get along?" line of thinking are those whom you know are not really at full 100% in their walk with God. Ask these people if they're reading their Bible, spending time in prayer, helping others grow, whether they have a zeal to seek and save the lost; they'll gladly define their Christian walk as "an intimate relationship with God through Jesus Christ", even though they express no clear intent to know the person of God at all. You'll find that compared to those in "reaction", the difference is far too big.
Even so, the former will say - even in the same breath - "Why is there so much disunity in my church? Why are people backsliding and falling into sin? Why aren't people getting saved? Why does everything feel so shallow
Hellooo? :-?


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/9/6 18:48Profile
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re: Is Calvinism for reaching the Lost or Reaching the Saved?

Quote:
by Blunt on 2007/9/7 4:46:57

I am not calvinist or Armenian but I love Calvinists.I believe they are a part of the body of Christ,.I know alot of Godly 5 pointers ,7 pointers and 12 pointers and so on...

My notice though of alot of our brothers who abide and teach Calvinism spend more time preaching to other believers then to the Lost.Maybe it is a maturity issue that these guys suffer from or who I am fellowshiping with.Anyone out there notice this also?


Remember I love my Reformed Bro's I am not bashing just throwing a question out there.




One consistant factor I've seen among Arminians who eventually shifted towards a Calvanist leaning (myself included) is that there is a coupling between intense Berean-level study of the Word as well as contemplation of what it is going to mean practically. This is an issue too close to the gospel that it will cause a person to also ask: How will this affect my fellowshipping? My discipleship? My ministries? My outreach? Compared to others, he is so self-concious of his own walk that he wants to tread carefully.

Quote:
by Mahoney on 2007/9/7 5:56:26

You are aware that Paul Washer would consider himself a Calvinist....and he actually believes that the greatest need on the mission field is Theological training. Yes, after all of his years of experience on the mission field, he has come to the conclusion that the teaching of correct doctrine is most important.



I have to agree.
A lot of evangelistic instruction today is focused too much on how-to strategies regarding how to relate to people, cross-cultural communication, being friendly to people, etc, but what seems to be left out is actual instruction regarding the nature of salvation (whether it be Reformed, Arminian or in between). Ray Comfort's teaching certainly is an exception, but sadly a lot of newly trained evangelists seem to be going out into the harvest fields with little to no idea of the implications of what they're going to share.


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/9/6 18:49Profile





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