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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Questions That Must Be Answered For the Arminian and Non-Reformed

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roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

I do not think Calvinism confuses people, but rather infuriates them because the flesh has nothing left to boast in, or can take no credit for their spirituality. The teachings of Calvinism exalt God, and His sovereign, immutable will above the folly of man and his supposed wisdom.

One of the things that confuses me is how anyone can reject the headship of Adam into sin and depravity yet expect to have the headship of Christ into truth and grace. These must have one another to work. The race of mankind was doomed in Adam, hence the need for a new race of people, with a new name Christians.

The whole Bible speaks of God's dealings with His people on basis of covenant. God did not deal with the nations surrounding Israel as He did with Israel because they were not in the covenants that He established. In the NT, Christ has fulfilled the terms of the covenant with the Father, and those who are given faith enter into all of the promises of that covenant, but once again it is for God's people whom He has foreknown and predestined to be conformed to their Head. The work was done in eternity and is now being applied in time, consider this verse-
Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

When was this? Of course Christ died over 2000 years ago, yet He died for the sins of His people to come.

Consider also this verse-
Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Whose sins? The sins of the Church, or the people whom God established the covenant with Christ for. Christ is referred to as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world, or in other words, before the world was formed, this was already as if it were done. Now compare that to this-
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The "us" again is the individuals the comprise the Church are they not?

Now as for the notion that a man has free will to come to God on his own, how can any say that when Christ Himself said-
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(Here's a "whosoever" many tend to overlook)

Jesus would go to say that these who needed to be freed were in fact children of their father the devil, and He reiterated to them that if God was their Father, they would love Christ. Form this we see that men in their natural state do not have God as their Father, and are evil and depraved. They hate Christ, they hate God, and want nothing to do with Him or His ways. However the soul that has been re-born, or born from above as is the Greek, rejoices to serve that which he once hated, and what was at one moment foolishness, now brings great joy. Now this soul has Almighty God as its Father.

Paul went on to write-
Romans 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Romans 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How then can a man who is a slave be free? Also in light of the latter passages, notice that the man did not set himself free from the slavery. Rather there was a heart change allowing him to obey what was once foolishness to him.

Now consider this-
Romans 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.

Do you not see that there was nothing to commend us to God? nothing that should have made God choose us, as we were void of any righteousness. Who then may I ask set us free, and released us from the shackles of sin and death, and breathed life into the dead bones of our souls, and changed our heart of stone into a heart of flesh?

If it was you, or your decision(Note, I am not saying that God decides for us, but rather He so changes the will that it now chooses Christ, and apart from this work we never would choose Christ but rather sin), you deny God the glory of His saving you, and take upon yourself a trait that only God Himself possesses- the ability to give life to whom He will.

Now let's look at one last point.

In John 3:3, Jesus tells Nicodemas, " Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

The Greek word for again is "anothen" which means "from above", "from a higher source", "again".

Looking at these meanings, it is clear to see that the new birth is not something man manipulates or adds to. For Christ Himself says that unless this birth from above happens, man cannot discern the Kingdom. Consider also that as Paul says in 1 Corinthians, "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14), and he also said that the preaching of the Cross is foolishness to those that are perishing, while to us that are save it is the power of God(1 Corinthians 1:18).

In these both, are elements which show us that if God does not "open" the eyes, and make the heart alive, none can see or believe.

Blessings in Christ


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 12:04Profile
whyme
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Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:





ccchhhrrriiisss wrote:
Hi Logic...

I really enjoyed your responses! I don't know that I have ever read a more insightful rebuttal to these sort of doctrinal questions. Thanks!

The more that I study the views of Calvinism, the more I am convinced that many Calvinists do not understand the ETERNAL viewpoint of God. He has always known the end from the beginning. Before He created us, He knew who would ultimately choose to accept His offer to fellowship with Him. Yet this time-confined place called LIFE is burdened with the concept of FREE WILL. If predestination prevented our free will from making any difference in our eternal condition, then Christ would have died in vain.

Thanks for sharing your articulate response! I am neither Calvinist or Arminianist. I am simply a believer who freely chooses to love and serve the one true Living God. But God already knew that -- even before He created the Universe, didn't He?

I have often seen the statement that God foreknew who would choose Him. Where is that verse (s) in the Bible

:-)


 2007/9/6 13:34Profile
running2win
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Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re: Questions That Must Be Answered For the Arminian and Non-Reformed

Come [i]on[/i] Abe, don't you have anything better to bring up?


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/9/6 13:37Profile
running2win
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Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
but rather infuriates them because the flesh has nothing left to boast in, or can take no credit for their spirituality. The teachings of Calvinism exalt God, and His sovereign, immutable will above the folly of man and his supposed wisdom.


What are you implying? That every christian who is not a calvinist boasts in the flesh or thinks he has something to offer God?! Brother, that is a serious accusation. If you are all knowing then I think you would have the right to make it but since you are not then I would be much more careful in your presumption. The godliest men I've known are not calvinist and they have a better grasp on the inability of the flesh than you or I do. This is a serious thing your saying here and seriously erroneous.


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/9/6 13:43Profile
running2win
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Joined: 2007/5/15
Posts: 231
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA

 Re:

Quote:
Calvinist or Arminian...

reminds me of

Pharisee or Saducee

I am neither even though I believe parts of both camps doctrine. This is a false dichotomy though, wordly theology camps that I have seen many brothers dragged way off into error in both directions by. Give me a break, I reject both as a whole and accept some parts of each.

The kingdom of God is not in word but in power, the pharisees and saducees could not inherit eternal life through their doctrines and neither can Calvinists or Arminians.

In Christ - Jim


Amazingly profound Jim and I find myself in the exact same place in which you describe yourself. Thank you for these words of wisdom.


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Jeff Mollman

 2007/9/6 13:47Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
What are you implying?



Nothing implied, just truth.

The fatal flaw in Arminian/Semi-Pelagian thought is that man can add anything to his salvation. This leads into all kinds of lies for instance-

Open theism, after all, God is not sovereignly sovereign, but rather at the whim of man's choices.

Non inspired Scripture, I mean how do we know that God told these men to write what they did. Man has a "free-will" and could have inserted his own thoughts.

Sanctification as the basis for justification, because Christ did not really save you when He died, He only erased what you had done before. But now you must maintain a clean slate, or you will not enter Heaven.

Every Christian is a Calvinist whether they admit it or not simply because God says, "we love Him because He first loved us." This is perhaps one of the greatest verses in Scripture, that Almighty God would pre-love a wretched man as myself.

To accept this verse means conceding to God's foreknowledge of who He would love, and who He would pass by, and it also means that we bow the knee, and understand that we are saved because God in eternity past declared it so, and put us into Christ when He died on Calvary thus assuring the salvation of our souls, not simply making a way of salvation, but rather guaranteeing that those who were in Christ from eternity past, would be saved as time unfolded. It truly is a glorious thing !!!!!


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 14:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Every Christian is a Calvinist whether they admit it or not



This is one of the worse things I have ever read on many levels :(

You can have your murderer Calvin, and a nice packaged pharisse theology. I would prefer simply to have Jesus.

Maybe I'll start a new theological camp and call it "Jiminists" the one point of Jiminism is that Jesus is Lord. So therefore all Christians are Jiminsts... Calvinism and Arminianism are just as stupid. There I said it. (I dont mean that to offend my bretheren whom I love and would invite to my house for dinner if you lived close enough or are ever in the Detroit area). That is simply what I want to say... Calvinism and Arminianism are just as stupid.

In Him - Jim

 2007/9/6 14:38
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
I do not think Calvinism confuses people, but rather infuriates them because the flesh has nothing left to boast in, or can take no credit for their spirituality.

are you implying that arminians love the fesh so much that they are infuriated because it seems that calvinisme humbles?

The reaseon that Calvinism infuriates me is because it makes god out to be a devilish tirant.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
The teachings of Calvinism exalt God,

How is it exalting Him when it makes Him creat only to destroy in hell?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
One of the things that confuses me is how anyone can reject the headship of Adam into sin and depravity yet expect to have the headship of Christ into truth and grace.

headship of Christ is volentary, headship of Adam is involantary and forced onto mankind.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Now as for the notion that a man has free will to come to God on his own, how can any say that when Christ Himself said-
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
(Here's a "whosoever" many tend to overlook)


[b]Joh 3:16[/b] [color=990000]For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that [b]whosoever[/b] believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.[/color]

Accordiing to what I heard Calvs say that the "whosoever" is not the entir world. Therefore what do you say that this "whosoever" means?
How do you tell the difference?

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
However the soul that has been re-born, or born from above as is the Greek, rejoices to serve that which he once hated, and what was at one moment foolishness, now brings great joy. Now this soul has Almighty God as its Father.

Not yet, the "regenerated" soul still needs to be saved, according to you.
Therefore, you have many born again non-christians running around in limbo until the "choose"

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Consider also that as Paul says in 1 Corinthians, "the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14),



[b]1Corinth 2:14[/b] [color=990000]But the natural man receives not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: and he is not able to know them, because they are spiritually discerned.[/color]
This inability is like saying that one can not because a refusal to do a prior requirement for the ability to do the other.
Example:
[b]John 14:17[/b] [color=990000]the Spirit of Truth, whom the world cannot receive because it does not see Him nor know Him. But you know Him, for He abides with you and shall be in you.[/color]
The verse has no implication of inability and one must not asume that it does.

Just as the natural man is not able to know the things of the Spirit of God because the natural man chooses not to receive them.

[b]Recieving is not the same as knowing.[/b]
The reason for the inability of knowing "the things of the Spirit of God" is because of the refusale or unwillingness to recieve them.
There is no inability implied in recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"
Just as:
The world cannot receive the Spirit of Truth because chooses not see Him nor know Him.
There is no inability implied in seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
Therefore, the reason of these inabilitis are because of the refusal or unwillingness of seeing Him(the Spirit of Truth) or knowing Him.
and refusal or unwillingness of recieving "the things of the Spirit of God"

Again, the "not seeing Him or knowing Him" does not imply inability, man only chooses not to or is unwilling to see Him or to know Him.
There is no inability to see God or to know Him, because God has has went to great lengths to make sure that all mankind can see Him or know Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God does not make a natural man unable to receive them, for he is able to receive them by seeing Him or by knowing Him.

The foolishness of the things of the Spirit of God only makes him unable to know them because because they are spiritually discerned.

[b]NO![/b] God does not, first, need to give the ability(your so called regeneration), otherwise it is an inability until He gives, inreturn, make man inocent because of the inability.

 2007/9/6 14:59Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
How is it exalting Him when it makes Him creat only to destroy in hell?



Either way brother, you have got to deal with this in the end. God creates people and they sadly perish. Now it is not due to the free-will of man as that does not exist as everyman is bound to what his heart wants which is sin, and apart from God renewing the heart, he will not be set free.

So then it must be that God is a sovereign Creator who does what He will to whom He will. This is why in Romans 9, the verses that say he has mercy on whom He will have the "mercy" as a verb. He mercies whom He will, and no this Chapter is not about nations as the language does not suit this interpretation, and Paul also sums up his argument thus-
Romans 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Romans 9:23 And [b]that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,[/b]
Romans 9:24 [b]Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?[/b]

The vessels are people, individuals called from all humanity by His grace.

Quote:
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

According to what I heard Calvs say that the "whosoever" is not the entire world. Therefore what do you say that this "whosoever" means?
How do you tell the difference?



Again brother the "whosoever" must do something, they must believe, which apart from God's work in their heart cannot be done.

Also there is no Greek word that means "whosoever", the literal interpretation would be "that the believing ones would not perish"

I have never said that God has not given Christ to the world(all types of men) Christ is for all types of men, and this is what was so hard for the Jewish people to believe, that Christ would not just redeem Jews, but also Gentiles.

Quote:
Not yet, the "regenerated" soul still needs to be saved, according to you.
Therefore, you have many born again non-christians running around in limbo until the "choose"



I don't know where I have said this, because I believe the new birth is regeneration, and thus a man is given faith to stretch out his once crippled hand to lay hold of Christ. But this ability comes from God alone.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 15:14Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
The fatal flaw in Arminian/Semi-Pelagian thought is that man can add anything to his salvation



No no no no no no no. wrong. Arminianism is NOT Pelagianism or any form of it. Neither is Wesleyanism. Once again, like Abe and the quote in the other thread of Spurgeon, continue to pull the same antics in this "argument." You (intentionally or not) are misrepresenting non-Calvinists in order to strengthen your position. Normally, I try not get involved in these types of discussions, but you are walking a very dangerous line...you are on the verge of condemning to hell whoever disagrees with your Calvinism. Judge not...for what with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/9/6 15:40Profile





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