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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Clearing Up Some Common Misperceptions of "Particular Redeption"

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BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

I would LOVE to hear a Calvinist preach (evangelize) what he says he believes to the unsaved. Good Luck anybody ever repenting! Oh yeah, I forgot...if God "unconditionally elected" him, he has no choice...he can't "resist it." Which begs the question, why was the Calvinist evangelizing in the first place ;-)


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/9/6 9:45Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

By the way, did y'all know that Calvin recanted this particular aspect of his teachings? It was evidently "resurrected" when his followers felt the need to form a system of theology in response to the Remonstrants.


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/9/6 15:43Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
..if God "unconditionally elected" him, he has no choice...he can't "resist it." Which begs the question, why was the Calvinist evangelizing in the first place



Brother God commands that the Gospel be proclaimed to all men. Only those who have the inward call worked by the Holy Spirit by the outward call(the preaching of the Gospel). This is brought home by Romans 8:29-30-
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them [b]he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/b]

Notice the work is finished. The Gospel goes forth to men, and God gives the grace to enable men to believe and repent. Many are called, but few are chosen. I do not see why anyone gets upset about the limiting aspect of this idea, for even Christ says that few will be saved.

You are mixing Biblical Calvinism with Hyper Calvinism which does not believe in preaching to people because God will bring them regardless.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 16:07Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Quote:
You are mixing Biblical Calvinism with Hyper Calvinism which does not believe in preaching to people because God will bring them regardless.



No I am not. I fully understand the difference...I never claimed that Calvinists believe this...but if it be true, there would be no need for God to command evangelism. And at least the hyper-Calvinists "put their money where their mouth is" even though their theology is clearly wrong. Again, I say, try to preach Calvinism. Calvinists tend to preach like Arminians, but Arminians tend to pray like Calvinists. And both win souls for Christ. Of course, one would be remiss to exclude the Wesleyans in this also. :-)

Bless you brother...I take no issue those who subscribe to what you describe as "biblical" Calvinism. Some of my best friends are 5-pointers, and in fact the church I attend is reformed. I strongly disagree that the Bible teaches Calvinism/Arminianism. Like Ron, I tend to think Wesley got it right...at least in soteriology, and the Arminians are "too Calvinist for me." I understand where they get it, I just disagree, which I hope we can agree to ;-)


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/9/6 16:33Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
..if God "unconditionally elected" him, he has no choice...he can't "resist it." Which begs the question, why was the Calvinist evangelizing in the first place

You are mixing Biblical Calvinism with Hyper Calvinism which does not believe in preaching to people because God will bring them regardless.

Hyper Calvinism is the logical conclusion to Calvinism.
Why do you preach, you say because you wre told to.

I preach because I love the sinner and I know that all have a chance.
I can tell all people that Christ died for them, you can not, because HE might not have died for that one you are preaching to.

 2007/9/6 17:35Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
I can tell all people that Christ died for them, you can not, because HE might not have died for that one you are preaching to.



You shouldn't tell sinners this, for what if one person you preach to perishes? Christ did not die for them, or Christ is a liar for saying that none that the Father has given Him will perish.

Where do you see the Apostles preaching this?

Paul's writings are all to the Church in speaking that Christ died for them, and thus the salvation has been applied to them thus they are grafted in to the Body of Christ.

We are never told in the Bible to tell men that Christ died for them. There is only one who can tell a person this, that being the Holy Spirit. The Gospel is the good news of Christ's death, burial and resurrection providing peace with God through His propitiatory work followed by a command to believe this and repent of there hatred of God and His Messiah.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 18:15Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
I can tell all people that Christ died for them, you can not, because HE might not have died for that one you are preaching to.

You shouldn't tell sinners this, for what if one person you preach to perishes? Christ did not die for them, or Christ is a liar for saying that none that the Father has given Him will perish.


If one does perish, iit does not mean that Christ did not die for them, it only means that the person who perished did not take advantage of Chraist's sacrifice and of the oppertunity to repent.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Where do you see the Apostles preaching this?

[b]Rev 4:11[/b] [color=990000]Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: [b]for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.[/b][/color]

If Christ did not die for one person, Then, he created that person to be damned. He caused that person to die in his sins for HIS own pleasure.
Therefore God damns for pleasure.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
We are never told in the Bible to tell men that Christ died for them.

Au contraire ma sœur:
[b]Rom 5:6[/b] [color=990000]For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.[/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
The Gospel is the good news of Christ's death, burial and resurrection providing peace with God through His propitiatory work followed by a command to believe this and repent of there hatred of God and His Messiah.

If Christ did not die for one person, then it is not Gospel(good news), if it is not Gospel to one, then it is not Gospel at all.

 2007/9/6 20:03Profile
BeYeDoers
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Joined: 2005/11/17
Posts: 370
Bloomington, IN

 Re:

Paul told the Corinthians that when he CAME to them he was determined to preach nothing save Christ and Him crucified. They were not saved when Paul first came to them...and he spoke of Christ's death. You cannot preach Christ's death without preaching Christ's death. Your reasoning makes no sense. Christ died for the forgiveness of sins...this gospel was preached throughout the unbelieving world through the entire New Testament. What exactly do YOU tell the unregenerate? You preach His death but don't tell them what it's for?


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Denver McDaniel

 2007/9/6 20:18Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Au contraire ma sœur:
Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly



Knowing you would quote from Romans, I specifically said that Paul's writings were to people who already had been brought into the faith.

If anything, this Scripture affirms that Christ indeed has died for some, the ungodly. They are the ones who Paul goes onto say, "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us". Who are the "we" here, it definitely is not the world as Paul is not addressing the world here.

Quote:
If Christ did not die for one person, Then, he created that person to be damned. He caused that person to die in his sins for HIS own pleasure. Therefore God damns for pleasure.



If Christ died for this person, this person would be saved. End of story.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 20:56Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Paul told the Corinthians that when he CAME to them he was determined to preach nothing save Christ and Him crucified. They were not saved when Paul first came to them...and he spoke of Christ's death. You cannot preach Christ's death without preaching Christ's death. Your reasoning makes no sense. Christ died for the forgiveness of sins...this gospel was preached throughout the unbelieving world through the entire New Testament. What exactly do YOU tell the unregenerate? You preach His death but don't tell them what it's for?



I don't think I said anything to the contrary, but to tell a person that Christ died for them is not our duty, it is solely the responsibility of the Holy Spirit. His application of the work of Calvary is His office alone, and not that of man.

Christ crucified should be proclaimed to all under the sun, and God grants grace which works faith to believe, and receive Christ as Saviour and Lord.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/9/6 21:05Profile





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