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Gideons
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Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Should we pray for persecution??

Chanin,

Perhaps we should pray for persecution? When I read about the saints in other countries, I'm shaken by the intimate relationship with Jesus, regardless of what is going on around them. I think some people are praying for revival in the U.S. but they're not realizing that they're praying for judgment because He's coming back for a spotless bride, not a lukewarm harlot church.

As far as America, here's what I've told a couple of my brothers something like this: "The fence riding days are coming to an end. No you cannot serve God and mammon. You choose whether or not Jesus will be Lord in all things in every possession, in any attitude, in all things." Selah.

Surely we need to pray for these folks. As far as praying about suffering, here's a few verses on tribulation.

Quote:
Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

Quote:
Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience

Quote:
2 Cor 7:24 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation.

Quote:
1 Thess: 3:4 For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

Quote:
Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


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Ed Pugh

 2004/5/14 18:15Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2734
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
All i have to say is that nothing short of persecution will probably bring the people in this nation back to the Lord. It is not that i don't have pity, it is just something i know.



It is when we look at the world around us and are quite sure that it cannot be revived that God will begin to move in revival. Then there will be no doubt as to who has accomplished the great works in the earth, man cannot take any glory.

I believe this nation is under judgment already and it will get much worse, particularly with the economy, but God is moving now to prepare the hearts of His people to shine for His glory in the difficulties ahead.

Personally I'm tired of pointing fingers and finding fault for why we are where we are as a nation and a Church. We are way past that point now, it's time to ask now why I'm not making a difference in this world.



Quote:
Perhaps we should pray for persecution?



Perhaps we should. To pray for God's peace is to pray for the death and subsequent resurrection of the present day situation. Redemptive judgments of God are true love, and will bring true peace. We must not be afraid of them for ourselves. We must be willing to accept hard truths.

The invitation to pray is an invitation to set in motion the redemptive judgments of God that will enable us to be delivered unto His purpose.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/5/14 18:15Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Friends in response to Chanin's dream, I believe that if the Lord leaves it will be a similar situation as in Ezekiel 8-10. The message I was teaching last night when the server bombed was along the lines of distancing ourselves from our besetting sins and getting rid of the 'vehicles' for our sins to be carried out. The devil would rather kill me than allow such a teaching to come forth. I spoke of some things my dad has done after God delivered him of 25 years of alcoholism. The first thing he did was dump his beer fridge! Then he immediately started taking a different route home from work that he still takes today. A route that does NOT go by that familiar liquor store. Then a few months later he tossed his expensive wine collection strait into the trash (he hated wine by the way)- because the enemy was wanting to weild anything he could to resnare him in the sin and he as a new convert saw it and took immediate action. The enemy will kill you with a plastic knife if you let him! Then he destroyed the old country music tunes he used to listen to because they reminded him of his days of drinking. That, friends, is radical repentance. He hates 'even the garment spotted by the flesh.' We have to hate sin like that!

For me it is a modem or something similar. I cannot have one in my house. I can access the net at my parents or friends or anywhere where someone is there to keep me accountable. You say, why he sounds weak! Why would he say such a thing and ruin his reputation? No, I realize that if I were at home and in the middle of the night woke up tired and delerious- the enemy may attack and I had defiled my conscience before I knew what happened and you may never hear from me again. At the least I would not have the BOLDNESS to preach a repentance message because of the defilement of my own conscience. Whan will we realize that the enemy wants that UNCTION? He wants to keep the Children of God with just enough sin to cut the boldness off.

Not havingthe 'weights't allows me to come to my senses before the sin is carried out. This type of talk the devil hates. I could go into great length on this topic. If Timothy had to flee youthful lusts- so do I. If Paul had to bring his body into subjection- so do I. I don't want to be a 'castaway' (Greek Adokimos- reprobate, rejected, and disqualified). I would rather die RIGHT NOW than to fall back into secret sin! I have had it! I'm tired of how it used to make me feel. I'm just through with it.

Beloved, we have got to stop the secret sins. God is through tolerating it. I'm sick of sin! We have got to stop provoking the Lord to jealousy with secret sins. We have to stop telling ourselves we can 'handle' certain weights. If we can handle them then why does the enemy keep using them as weapons against us?

So much more to say...

God Bless and Much love in Christ!

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/5/14 18:40Profile
moreofHim
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Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: persecution

Ron and Ed,

good thoughts all around! I agree!

Ron, like you said, I am tired of finger pointing, etc... it's too late for that anyway.

I will not pray specifically for persecution but I will continue to pray what I've been praying now for over a year :"Thy will be done". What ever it takes, whatever He wants to do- I am up for that, I am ready.

The only way people are going to even start to get a clue and be brought to the point of literally running to Him for their exhistence- is if there was persecution or some major catastrophic event that was life threatening.

It is very strange because i see a thread running through so many of my dreams that is of Sodom. Bits and pieces. I know that we are worse. When you get this kind of thing- what do you do? who do you tell? no one wakes up even if there's a slight chance they may agree.

I have wept, I have warned, and now I am waiting.

oh, wow! I just looked at that last line I wrote. I wrote it from me but I wonder.....?

In Christ, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/5/14 18:46Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: Time to Choose

I am sorry about going on here but to quote something from Ed:

Quote:
As far as America, here's what I've told a couple of my brothers something like this: "The fence riding days are coming to an end. No you cannot serve God and mammon. You choose whether or not Jesus will be Lord in all things in every possession, in any attitude, in all things." Selah.



I remember distinctly in my prayer time last year (and I wrote this down) [b]"The fence is broken"[/b].

I wondered about this and it seems that there is no more fence to sit on any more. It is either His way now or the highway. I had a word I sent out to people in 2002 that is was "Time to Choose". Well, this was two years ago- I don't know how long these things go on. Maybe a long time, maybe not.


-TIME TO CHOOSE-

The time is drawing near when you must choose. Are you going to choose My will and My ways or your own will and your own ways? Listen, do you hear the words of My Holy Spirit speaking to you- unplug your ears and hear what the Spirit is saying. Once again, I must say, who is on the throne of your heart? Is it yourselves, wanting to remain in control, wanting to orchestrate the moves you make, not wanting to lay down everything to Me?

It has been said in this generation that you do not need to give everything up in order to have Me – that is a lie! I am asking you to lay everything down for Me. Those things that you hold on to the tightest- those are the things I want you to lay at My feet. This word must sear the conscience. It must move past the head and to the heart.

Do you want to go into the inner court? To do this means sacrifice. Do you understand this? You want more of Me, a greater manifestation of Me, to get closer to Me; does that not mean to enter into the inner court, the Holy of Holies? Only few know the sacrifice it takes to enter in here. Only few are willing to lay down everything and cooperate with Me. Let Me do the ruling , the orchestrating.


Think of My will as a glorious ride or adventure. You will either be along for the ride or not. My Will will be done in the body of Christ as a whole with or without you. I am already moving, I am already restoring, I am already equipping My body all over the earth. Think past this group, think past this church building, think of the body of Christ as a whole. What I am doing is amazing!

How long will you hang on to yourselves? Do not look for fame, do not look for glory, do not look for wealth, do not look for praises of men, do not even look for blessings—for I am to be blessed! I am to be praised! I am to be glorified! I am to be your riches! I am to be your All in All in All!

The enemy will try so hard to keep you from letting go of those things you think you cannot live without. He will convince you of your rights. What about My right to have 100% of your heart and mind? You have no rights when it comes to Me- except to WORSHIP ME, to LOVE ME, SERVE ME and OBEY ME. Don’t you trust Me to know that I will take care of all of your needs, that I will give to you abundantly what I know you need? Am I not enough for you?

This generation has filled your head with yourselves and your needs and your claims. Do you not see the plot of the enemy?? Do you not see that so many of you have lost sight of Me and who I really am. To ask Me to continually bless people and things that are still hanging on to their own purposes –I will not have it! Not for My bride, not for My beloved. Oh, My beloved, My pure, pure bride; how I long to be with you. How I long to hold you. Don’t you see that unless you are pure, My Glory would disintegrate you?

I love you this much to warn you and warn you. But as I have spoken before, the church is at the crossroads, time is running out. Whom will you choose? The lukewarm church will not stay in My sight. Will you lay everything at My feet so that I might hold you to Me and cherish you, linger over you and enjoy you. I love you My people. I loved you enough to sacrifice what I held dearest to Me, now will you do the same?


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Chanin

 2004/5/14 19:01Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re:

Quote:

"I have wept, I have warned, and now I am waiting".


Amen to this! ... A sister from my church called me yesterday and asked me why I'd become so quiet ... I told her that our Lord had said for me to cease because now it was between Him and my pastor ...

But in the meanwhile He has directed me to another church (via a radio program) that has a "teaching" pastor whose word is like a refreshing spring to my parched soul ... I've not left my primary church, for when He moves His miraculous hand I feel there will be much work for me to do there ... But as for now I'll be soaking up, instead of squeezing out ... Thank you Master!

 2004/5/16 15:59Profile
shazbot
Member



Joined: 2004/2/11
Posts: 60
USA

 Re:

Regarding Chanin's dream:

What is the worst part of hell? It's not that you're in constant pain, or that you have eternally, forever, no more hope. The worst part of hell is that you are completely separated from God.

God is here, now and always. He has been here since before we have existed. God is omnipresent. It is nonsense to say that God leaves a place. He can withold assistance, He can choose to hide Himself, but He will not change His omnipresence.

God is the fairest Judge ever. He punishes individuals for individual sins. Never would he punish the righteous in the USA with the unrighteous. He does not "throw the baby out with the bathwater", to borrow a trite expression.

Why is it that we think God has emotions? Isn't that ascribing a human characteristic to God?

[i]Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this post are just that, opinions. They may be wrong, they may be stupid, and if so, God will deal with me.[/i]

 2004/5/16 21:33Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 God is Emotion ...

shazbot you stated:

"Why is it that we think God has emotions? Isn't that ascribing a human characteristic to God?"

On the contrary, I think emotion is a God characteristic ascribed to we humans ... We are created in God's image, right on down to being tri-partite beings, not vise-versa.

Love is the greatest emotion of all, and scripture tells us that God so LOVED us that He gave Christ before we were even created (before the setting of the foundation of the world) ... So the emotion of love was of God before we humans ever got here ... God is Love ... Both the OT and the Revelation speak of God's anger/wrath ... Anger is emotion, as is grief which is what we cause the Holy Spirit. God feels joy when we bless Him, especially with our obedience, and delights in giving us the desires of our hearts in reward ... I think we serve a God (the Father) who is emotion, and I thank Him that He shone forth Jesus to cover us in His blood so that His anger can be curbed for this period of grace that we've enjoyed ... I wanted to say "enjoying", but I sense that His wrath is about to be experienced again.

 2004/5/17 8:47Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: God is Emotion ...

God is a good God. But when that love is repeatedly rejected and with full knowledge bad things start brewing. I was thinking about God being emotional and Psalm 7-11 came to mind, "God is angry with the wicked every day." Charles Finney comments on this passage saying, [i]"God is angry with the wicked. Our text explicitly affirms this. The same truth is affirmed and implied in numerous other passages. Let the sinner remember that this is the testimony of God himself. Who should better know the feelings of God towards sinners than God Himself does? Who on this point can gainsay what God affirms?" [/i]

I take this together with great fear and awe and couple it with the fact that Paul said in Romans 1:18 that the wrath of God is revealed from Heaven all unrighteousness of men- who hold the truth in unrighteousness (paraphrased). Who among us can say we didn't know better. Moreover, Leonard Ravenhill said something to the effect that if he was the Pope of Protestantism he would shut down the Church (for a week or month?) because the people already had so much LIGHT that they refused to walk in that teaching them more was heaping more on them to account for in the judgment. God have mercy if that has happened. What would happen if we got up and said "To teach this lesson will only harden you if you are impenitent- I must ask you to leave if you are bent on your sin." but we always hope that THIS message couples with the conviction of the Holy Spirit will lead them to God at that time. And then when they reject it- its a grievious and fearful thing. The sleepless nights are adding up beloved.

The last couple years have been a real eye opener. I am learning more every day that I preach and teach for God's glory- and not just to look and see results. Preaching repentance now for 5+ months weekly has shown me that problems in the Church is more than with the Preachers. I used to believe it was the preachers and that those in the crowd would come running and weeping at the first thunderous message of true Gospel- what I have found is... some do and some get harder. Those who begin to preach repentance and revival ought to expect resistance from 'pew to principality.'

Think of the message of Jeremiah in Jeremiah 25. He preached repentance in some way or the other for 23 YEARS! Every week or so he went to God to get a FRESH word and it was the same word again dressed a little differently- REPENT. "God I just preached that- what is the fresh word for the day?" ... "REPENT!" 5 months is nothing compared to 23 years and I can see in people a serious hardness and in others growth.

At the end of the day the people are going to give an account to God for their own spirituality. They have bibles. How is it we would equate what is happening today with the Church with what happened when the Universal church was deceiving the people? Beloved we must remember, they did NOT have bibles. This generation, in many cases,- if they are deceived, are willingly deceived.

Since I was a little boy I have feared the ultimate Judgment of God. When judgment finally hits there will be plenty to go around! God have mercy on us. Personally I have read the accounts of the martyrs and others like Richard Wurmbrand's "Tortured for Christ" and I'm not trying to see persecution like that. That's one of the reasons I fee such an urgency and go head on into great persecutions for saying some of the things I do (usually spiritually at this point). I would give my life for Christ to see the sufferings of the Communist Christians and the like prevented in our lands. I agree that it will likely take that to get things together and have felt that way for 11 years. But, some of the things that happen to Christians in the hands of pagans is too horrible for me to even write. Personally I will preach myself into the grave and die in the hands of the Church before I see that happen. I have been an unpopular person for a long time. But I have seen what happens to people who fall into the hands of sinners and God births an urgency and I preach in desperation with God's power. Read Josephus 'Wars.' Mothers having to cook and eat their babies. Famine and destruction so great- we could not imagine. Other writings of torture and rape against believers. We don't want that for our wives and Children, and our moms and dads.

I grieve so very deeply that a lot of people are really mad at the Church. I have been hurt by being on the receiving end of extreme hostility towards the Church. I have heard people say they refuse to ASSEMBLE- either with Church Christians or Out-Of-Church Christians. Some won't even acknowledge the name "Church." This is not new. I had to hear that for 3.5 years among the Messianics. If the Church takes a 'spanking from God' it will be first because of the bickering among His children. What grieves the heart of a parent more than to see bitterness among their siblings? If I believe anything I believe that God will deal with that behavior FIRST.

God give us the John the Baptist's that will turn the Church from this path in America. Persecution? Daddy come home? maybe God will send the 'razor strap' of persecution to teach us that if were going to fight each other- He can give us some real enemies. Beloved, we wrestle not against flesh and blood...

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/5/17 17:07Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: God is Emotion

Preach Bro. Robert!!! ...

and I totally agree with this quote:

"If the Church takes a 'spanking from God' it will be first because of the bickering among His children. What grieves the heart of a parent more than to see bitterness among their siblings? If I believe anything I believe that God will deal with that behavior FIRST.

God give us the John the Baptist's that will turn the Church from this path in America. Persecution? Daddy come home? maybe God will send the 'razor strap' of persecution to teach us that if were going to fight each other- He can give us some real enemies. Beloved, we wrestle not against flesh and blood" ...

There's nothing like outside persecution to close the ranks of a bickering family ... Christ commands for us to love one another are pretty much blatantly unheeded ...

And you sound like one of those John the Baptist' that we need ... So keep crying out!, in the name of Jesus ... Amen

 2004/5/18 9:59Profile





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