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 Concerning Adam II

This a part of longer paper I am in the process of writing. I believe this much can shed some light on what I have already has been offered up. It is with that hope I submit this much. If you don't agree, that's alright. However, I am not looking for my words to be represented. Pleasee read carefully before kicking any of it out.
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Concerning Adam

The question has been many times asked, “Why did God create Adam if He knew Adam would fail”, which begs another question: “Fail at what”? Answering the second question will help explain the reason for asking the first one.

Let’s look at this passage from Ephesians picture that Paul readily saw and understood and, as a result of that revelation understanding, wrote all his letters with it as central to his perspective:

“ But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,” Hebrews 2:9-11 (KJV)

Ok. We can see that ‘many sons for Father’ is the reason for creation and procreation would be the only means they would ever come into existence. We know that because “Procreation ‘R’ us”. He would not nor could not individually create us as did He the Angels, who have no redeemer nor can ever have one. Ask the question: “How many redeemers would be needed for each of God’s fallen creatures, if He created them all individually”? Moses was commanded to strike the ‘rock’ once. Never again is the ‘Rock’ to be smitten for mankind. We know that is true and we will one day see the single set of nail prints in the hands of Jesus. The Disciples saw them first on that day in the upper room. Only one set could and will ever be.

”And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.” Hebrews 6:5-6 (KJV)

Knowing that Adam would fail was certainly in the foreknowledge of the Father, however, Father still had to; was compelled to, follow through with His “soon to fail” creation while, at the same time, make provision for its redemption. Make no mistake about this: Adam was given humanity to its fullest degree/strength; that superhuman degree and no more, for a test Adam alone must pass. No one could come to his aid in this. It should be understood at this time that Adam was not divine in anyway. Though he came from Hand of Divinity; Divinity formed him from dust, there was not a speck of Divinity in him. Keep in mind he was NOT perfect. Only Divinity can ever perfect. However, Adam was “perfectly innocent”. Innocence that needed to be filled with “perfection”; the result of moral choices given him that would have accomplished the task, i.e., Transfiguration, the eating of the Tree of Life whereby he would have lived forever as the Father intended….Divinity would have happened.

Saying this does not mean procreation would have ceased. Procreation was still to be the means for birthing sons and bringing them into Glory; grooming them for Divine life.. Obviously the “new birth” or second birth would not have been needed had Adam succeeded in passing his test[s].

This not about self-righteous flesh accomplishing anything for or in God but flesh, by revelation, totally submitting to the will of the Father.

”Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:”Hebrews 10:5 (KJV)

This spoken by Christ, the Word of God, not the Son of God. The Son of God was begotten in human flesh as “son of man” to become Transfigured for all in Glory to marvel at. This Transfiguration of Jesus was about Christ, the Logos, having been perfected in the life of Jesus, son of man, to be forever revealed in his now Glorified human flesh as the new Christ of Glory! A Glorified human body of Flesh and Bone forever.

However, before He was begotten in human flesh it was intended that the Christ of Glory inhabit a created body, that of Adam, son of God.

Interesting thing here is this passage that confirms this: “Jesus was begotten of ….. the son of Adam, the son of God.” Luke 3:38

Another interesting thing is that as Adam was given to procreate sons, in Jesus sons are also to be "procreated" for the Father but by a new creation; a new life giving Spirit. John 20.22.

The benefit that Adam never enjoyed that success be his is the Pentecostal experience, the empowerment for success. How then should we expect to succeed without it? Jesus said: "Don't leave Jerusalem until you receive it". Think what would have happened if Jesus had not this power when in His wilderness testing. 40 days without food or drink and then the onslaught of the devil. Even with this enduement, consider His struggle that only His allegiance-Love to the Father could 'power' Him through. It was His love that enabled-released the Angels to minister to Him. Would it not have been the same for Adam? Can we not see that God would have come to Adam with Himself to smite the enemy and reward Adam with His own Divine Nature? Should it now not be the same for us who claim, who brag about having His Nature by virtue of the new birth in Christ Jesus?

But where is the Character this new Nature is supposed to produce in us? We say we have the Nature but know and realize little of the Character process by which we are to be conformed to the image of Jesus Christ. I say Jesus Christ because Adam failed to become the embodiment of that image.

 2007/9/2 14:37









 Re: Concerning Adam II

Quote:
Only Divinity can ever perfect. However, Adam was “perfectly innocent”. Innocence that needed to be filled with “perfection”; the result of moral choices given him that would have accomplished the task, i.e., Transfiguration, the eating of the Tree of Life whereby he would have lived forever as the Father intended….Divinity would have happened.



Hi to Ormly,

I have been looking at your interesting threads on Adam and have a few questions if you don't mind? I hope I am not repeating anything you have already said.

If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life, would his offspring all have to have eaten of the Tree of Life to live forever, or would eternal life then been inherent? And would the Tree of Knowledge still have been there, to tempt?

When would procreation have stopped?

Also how would Satan have been dealt with?

Jalim

 2007/9/2 17:09









 Re:

Quote:
Hi to Ormly,

I have been looking at your interesting threads on Adam and have a few questions if you don't mind? I hope I am not repeating anything you have already said.

If Adam had eaten of the Tree of Life, would his offspring all have to have eaten of the Tree of Life to live forever, or would eternal life then been inherent?



Thank you Jalim for taking the time to do so.

If, by eating of the Tree of Life one becomes as God can only mean that one becomes Divine. Keeping that in view, can’t we imagine that Divine-Humanity would be the result and procreation would have given God His sons, born once and in no need for a “second birth”. Plan “A’ would have been a success.

Quote:
And would the Tree of Knowledge still have been there, to tempt?



I gotta believe if Adam ate of the Tree of Life he would have ripped out the tree of knowledge. After the eating of the Tree of Life, the knowledge tree would have logically lost its significance. Obedience would not anylonger have been an issue since Adam would have already demonstrated his obedience to the conclusion God was after from him.

Let’s do some speculation within the bounds of what we know: We know that the “wages of sin is death”, so regardless of whether Adam ate of the Tree of Life”, it would not have affected that part of things, correct? With that agreement, we can rightly assume that the Tree of Life carried with it something greater than sinless human life would have afforded; something more for Adam had he been inclined to eat of it. I believe I am still ok?

“[i] Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"— therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.[/i]”Genesis 3:22-23 (NASB77)

The second part of that from the Lord tells us what Adam would have become, i.e., divine. In a sinless condition that would have been ok, however, in a sinful state, all of the attributes of God would have been denied him, he would never be able to create anything, any habitation for himself [only undefiled love can do that] and yet he would have been as God, never to die. He would have been forever, eternally separated from God as Lucifer and more: Through procreation, which he still coud have participated in, ALL of humanity would have been doomed also! There would never have been redemption for him of his offspring in any way shape of form. Jesus could never have been born. It would have been a terrible mess of things.
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When would procreation have stopped?

Never! Procreation would never end, producing whatever condition of man that existed.

[Please remember that this speculation on my part. I don't pretend to know if God could have rectified anything, not for His sake anylonger but for the sake of eternally fallen man. Because of what we know about fallen Angels, I am inclined to believe man's' doom might even have be greater]

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Also how would Satan have been dealt with?

The same as Jesus dealt with him. Jesus defeated him in life and Adam would have done the same. Adam’s allegiance to the Father would have secured his defeat.


 2007/9/2 18:28









 Re:

Ormly, just so that we needn't type our disagreements over, I just would like to say that this one quote still stays with me.

It's difficult to get past this part -

Quote:
Quote:Katy-did wrote:
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soooooo what you are saying then is in God's original plan (gone sour), All would then be saying

"That at the name of Adam I every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Adam I is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ?????
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Ormly relied:

Thats right.



Though it's difficult to get past this one quote from your "First of firstfruits" thread - and I tried on your other "Adam" thread - this third thread today is just adding to the above quote with even more that cannot be explained with Scripture alone.

Is there another teacher out there, where you have derived this teaching on Adam's potential to be Lord and destroy Satan, that possibly you could direct us to ?
Possibly as you mentioned the difficulties in expression though typing - that this other teacher could be read and understood ? There must be someone out there that agrees with all that you've posted on Adam's potential positions and what not ?

 2007/9/2 20:01









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:
Ormly, just so that we needn't type our disagreements over, I just would like to say that this one quote still stays with me.

It's difficult to get past this part -

Quote:
Quote:Katy-did wrote:
------------------------------------------
soooooo what you are saying then is in God's original plan (gone sour), All would then be saying

"That at the name of Adam I every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Adam I is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" ?????
-------------------------------------------
Ormly relied:

Thats right.



Though it's difficult to get past this one quote from your "First of firstfruits" thread - and I tried on your other "Adam" thread - this third thread today is just adding to the above quote with even more that cannot be explained with Scripture alone.

Is there another teacher out there, where you have derived this teaching on Adam's potential to be Lord and destroy Satan, that possibly you could direct us to ?
Possibly as you mentioned the difficulties in expression though typing - that this other teacher could be read and understood ? There must be someone out there that agrees with all that you've posted on Adam's potential positions and what not ?



Rocket science education shouldn't be needed to undertsand this thread is about Adam while Jesus, first of first fruits. is about Jesus. Plan A vs Plan B.

This is the thread where I am not looking for accusations and unlearned agruments, especially from those not willing to take the time read for understanding. I want to discuss with folk who can makes distinctions, whose doctrine speaks more than John 3.16 when the discussing the issues and those willing to come away from the tranditional redemption only mode to discuss the rest of what Jesus Christ respresents.

 2007/9/2 20:23









 Re:

Quote:
I gotta believe if Adam ate of the Tree of Life he would have ripped out the tree of knowledge. After the eating of the Tree of Life, the knowledge tree would have logically lost its significance. Obedience would not any longer have been an issue since Adam would have already demonstrated his obedience to the conclusion God was after from him.



The Tree of Life was for enabling Adam to live forever, yes? But Adam still had 'self' will. I believe you might be saying that if Adam had only eaten from the Tree of Life once, then he would always have been obedient to God? Then the Tree of Knowledge would never have been a temptation to him? But we have to face the fact that the Tree of Knowledge was still there and Adam still had self will.

The other thing I wanted to look at is Adam's perfection and what method was God going to use to perfect him, allowing that he still had self will.

God's method that we know about from scripture is to be perfected through suffering, I believe.

1Pe 5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus,after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish,strengthen, settle [you].


Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

What I believe after looking at this and pondering on it, is that from the start God wanted each one of us, individually, to choose Him, by our own will. Sufferings did not seem to be around when Adam started out. God knew that Adam (and Lucifer)would sin.

And God (from the start) chose suffering as the method to make us perfect and to know Him better. So, in order to effect this we had to be in a fallen state.

I believe that His plan was carried out exactly how He devised it, given in the scriptures, that we might live with Him forever.

The other thing that I see is, that we know that at some point God has allowed that the Human race stop procreating. I have not had the time to look the scripture up but I believe it is after the millennium reign when the eternal order starts.

The thing that I have obtained from this is a sure knowledge that suffering was always a part of God's Plan and it can only be for our good and for His own ends, so that He will eventually have many sons brought into glory.

Jalim

 2007/9/3 9:19









 Re:

Jalim,

I am sure you have heard of the term, "Passion of Christ"?

Words mean something. I am going to do something here that may seem brazen with the hope everyone will ponder how each verse can take on a fresh implication after which we can discuss the other points of your post, if you wish:


Heb 2:10 For it became him, for whom [are] all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through the example of His "passionate Life, lived unto the Father...."Being conformed to His Image".

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by His "passion" for His Father. [physical suffering was yet to come]

1Pe 4:1 "Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin......."

Though "passion" can be seen, physical suffering is more strongly inferred in 1 Pet4.1 I alluded to.

And this last verse offered from another translation, also altered by me, that will help us see that: after you have been "passionate" for a little while concerning the issue of becoming a son and all that means to the Father, the God of all grace, who called you to His eternal glory in Christ, will Himself perfect, confirm, strengthen and establish you. 1 Peter 5:10 (NASB77)

I don't believe that, with any regard to heresy, the vesres translated to my understanding violate God's word. However, please understand that I realize the implications.

 2007/9/3 10:05









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:
It's difficult to get past this part


"That at the name of Adam I every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Adam I is Lord, to the glory of God the Father"
Quote:
Though it's difficult to get past this one quote from your "First of first fruits" thread - and I tried on your other "Adam" thread - this third thread today is just adding to the above quote with even more that cannot be explained with Scripture alone.



If you are looking for “proof text” you are correct. However, for anyone to read their Bible and proof text as their mode of understanding is folly. One will never “connect the dots”. The Bible is to be understood by revelation because it is revelation truth. Part of what this means is that truth of its context must sought out.

Quote:
Is there another teacher out there, where you have derived this teaching on Adam's potential to be Lord and destroy Satan that possibly you could direct us to?



What I want you to be and hope you are asking is: “Is there another teacher out there with this God–centered perspective as you speak of it to be”?

Yes, several, some saying more than others, however and because of that, I wouldn’t place all my eggs in any particular basket but glean only those truths that contribute to your journey home to Father, assuming you understand it is a journey we are on and that Jesus, upon the new birth, has given us instructions for getting back to the highway to Father's house. Most don't realize this and have set up roadside stands, selling Jesus plates and coffee mugs.

This is not an indictment of any particular writer but a word of caution to readers that understand revelation truth usually runs along a single issue line given for us to understand. Many writers with only a single issue presume much more in their writing than that single issue affords them. This is most recognizable when reading about redemption. It has been worded to death and is not a sustaining message for son-ship unless it can be seen that it is for God we are redeemed. Many today are all over the map in their preaching of redemption. They have no insight. This has created the need for a re-dedicator repair service.

Quote:
Possibly as you mentioned the difficulties in expression though typing - that this other teacher could be read and understood? There must be someone out there that agrees with all that you've posted on Adam's potential positions and what not?



In my search for a sustaining message, one that would rectify my “AC sine wave” life, my gleaning of the Authors began many years ago when introduced to the writings of Oswald Chambers who, by his writings, led me to others that influenced him and were influenced by him and thus my library grew. I have become very sensitive to the writings of authors whose writings I perceive as a dead-end reading….truth, perhaps, but truth, without insight that has no destination.

DeVern Fromke, known by some on this forum, helped me immensely by his writings. I can say that between Chambers, Fromke, E. Stanley Jones and a few others not so read as those three, I have sufficient confirmation that what I read in Bible is the message that needs be taught.

I hope that helps and if you want to know more about these authors and where their writings can be obtained, let me know.

 2007/9/3 12:56









 Re:

Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me. Is. 43:10

I am the LORD, and there is no other; apart from me there is no God. Is.45:5

Quote:
If you are looking for “proof text” you are correct. However, for anyone to read their Bible and proof text is their mode of understanding is folly. One will never “connect the dots”. The Bible is to understood by revelation because it is revelation truth. Part of what this means is that truth of its context must sought out.




I guess that's why the Bereans were looking for PROOF TEXT to see if what Paul was preaching was indeed the truth found in the PROOF TEXT of scripture.

But those who claim to have some sort of REVELATION KNOWLEDGE apart from the Word of God will always try to sucker you into believing a Comet is on it's way to rapture you on to Glory.

Or that they received the anointing of the Holy Spirit by standing over dead Amy McPherson's grave.


Stay IN the Word of God my friends.

Or has Ormly now believe himself to be the NEW REVEALED WORD of God, just as Joseph Smith thought himself to be?

Lord God Almighty is His Name, ....and you believe God was cloning himself through Adam who had to I guess spill His seed upon the earth as well to form Adam 1, just to divest His Glory into another??? Totally opposite from the scripture posted above, but then again, we DON't need Proof Text where Ormly's Revelations are coming from.

Even in the OT, it was forbidden for anyone to spill their seed upon the earth. Hummmmmm!
Oh Well,

Seems as though Ormly will eventually take over SI with this false Gospel.


Katy-did

 2007/9/3 14:00









 Re:

... either by that or by people who don't try in the slightest to understand another's thoughts, before raising their voice against them.

 2007/9/3 14:06





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