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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Do babies of unbelievers go to heaven if they die?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So if a baby is not a sinner through Adam, then surely they wouldn't die? If a little child was without sin, then that child would not die.

Although just babies, they still have a sin nature, as inherited from Adam. A sin nature which must be paid for.


This is widening the discussion into something far wider. Do men go to hell for Adam's sin or for their own? The penalty for Adam's sin was 'spiritual death' which passed to all the race. That sentence has already been passed and executed. We are all dead in trespasses and sins as a result of Adam's sin.

I don't think that the Bible anywhere teaches that people 'go to hell' for Adam's sin but because of their rejection of the gospel offer in Christ.

The consequence of Adam's sin was born in Christ when he embraced 'spiritual death' for us. Our old Adam was crucified with him and this becomes a personal experience to the man or woman who is 'baptised into Christ'. Personal sin and accountability is a different part of the question.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/2 13:03Profile









 Re: Do babies of unbelievers go to heaven if they die?


philologos said
]

Quote:
I don't think that the Bible anywhere teaches that people 'go to hell' for Adam's sin but because of their rejection of the gospel offer in Christ.

Thank you for explaining this thought.
Quote:
It is true that the prime reference here is to "one of these little ones who believe in Me" (Matt 18:6) but the concept of a child seeing the 'face of God' [u]may[/u] be wider than this. The word for chld here presumes an infant so we are not talking about someone who could give you a detailed explanation of 'justification by faith' but just simple trust.

(underscore mine)

I don't offer these further thoughts as definitive, but they are from a different perspective.

Christian parents are often encouraged to consider themselves as representing God to their children. In the same way (therefore) non-Christian parents may [i]not[/i] be representing 'God' to their children.

A friend of mine who worked in children's nursing, had one two year old whom she was sure the Lord would heal, if his parents would receive the gospel and believe. But they refused. The child died. In this true event, I don't think it's possible to argue with the faith and leading of the nurse who believed God, and I also don't think one can generalise from one particular incident.

But, it brings to mind what Paul says here:

1 Corinthians 7:14
For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: [u]else were your children unclean[/u]; but [b]now[/b] are they holy.


 2007/9/2 13:23









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
So if a baby is not a sinner through Adam, then surely they wouldn't die? If a little child was without sin, then that child would not die.

Although just babies, they still have a sin nature, as inherited from Adam. A sin nature which must be paid for.


This is widening the discussion into something far wider. Do men go to hell for Adam's sin or for their own? The penalty for Adam's sin was 'spiritual death' which passed to all the race. That sentence has already been passed and executed. We are all dead in trespasses and sins as a result of Adam's sin.

I don't think that the Bible anywhere teaches that people 'go to hell' for Adam's sin but because of their rejection of the gospel offer in Christ.

The consequence of Adam's sin was born in Christ when he embraced 'spiritual death' for us. Our old Adam was crucified with him and this becomes a personal experience to the man or woman who is 'baptised into Christ'. Personal sin and accountability is a different part of the question.



Thanks Ron, I take that on board!

The reasoning behind my post was this: death came into the world as a consequence of Adam's sin. We inherit Adam's sin nature, and we in turn sin. Because we sin, we, like Adam, will die.

If a baby is not sinful, then why would it die?

 2007/9/2 15:42
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Do babies of unbelievers go to heaven if they die?

Quote:
ZealForTruth wrote:
But what about if neither of the parents were christian? Does that mean that a baby will go to hell? Seems kinda unfair...

Since infants have not sinned yet, they go to be with the Lord that created them.

 2007/9/2 15:55Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
richardf wrote:
Paul tells us that '...as in Adam all die...' Any man born of Adam (meaning everyone) dies. Why do we die? Because of sin; '...the wages of sin is death

People do not die physicaly because of sin, the evidence for this claim is that plants and animals die but they never sin.
Therefore sin is not the reason for physical death.
Sin is the reason for spiritual death.

Quote:
richardf wrote:
I believe we have all inherited a sin nature from Adam, because of Adam's original sin.

the true fact is that we inherited a human nature from Adam.
Physical death is the outcome of "Adam's original sin".

Quote:
richardf wrote:
Although just babies, they still have a sin nature, as inherited from Adam. A sin nature which must be paid for.

Sin Nature is a mith!!!

Why would God, with such a great love for His creation, condemn it with Adam's sin when it has not yet sinned as a new born infant?
Furthermore, put a nature on creation for it to do naturaly what HE hates?

To put the indictment or a responsibility of "sin nature" that has not yet been committed and put a penalty or a price on the inocent is unjust.

If "Sin Nature" is true, it would pervert the justice of God and distort the love of God.

Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility which they don't deserve, because Adam did the crime and not his offspring, Furthermore, a nature of which HE hates?

Our natuer comes from what we are, which is human.

People do not have a "sin nature" just as an apple tree does not have an apple nature.

Just as an apple tree is created to bear fruit, so is man.
Sin is fruit, the fruit of unrightousness.
Good works from faith is fruit of rightousness.
All sin is fruit from what man is rooted in, which is of eather three things. Rooted in Christ, the world or self.

John 15:4b ...As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.
Romans 11:16b ...and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Romans 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree...

Since Christ is the Root/Vine & man a tree/vinebranch.
If man is not grafted into Christ, he is selfish &/or wotldly, because he has his own self as his root. Or he may also be worldly, for that is all he has(John 15:9, 1John 2:15)
This is the cause of all mans wickedness, that man is of the world and selfish and not of Christ and loving.

Therefore, the fruit does not make its nature, nor does the nature deside what its fruit is.

What ever fruit it bears, the tree still has a plant nature. not an apple nature, oriange nature, banana nature.
The kind of fruit obviously does not change what it is or what nature it has.
However, what ever it is grafted into does change it's fruit, just as my analogy shows, which is of Scripture as I have shown.

What ever fruit man bears, sin or righteousness, it is still human nature.

 2007/9/2 16:15Profile









 Re: Logic

Apologies, I mean to write sin[u]ful[/u] nature.

 2007/9/2 16:19
ZealForTruth
Member



Joined: 2007/6/26
Posts: 22


 Re:

Quote:
Since God loves His creation so much, why would He impose a nature on it againt it's will and/or charge it with an indictment or a responsibility which they don't deserve, because Adam did the crime and not his offspring, Furthermore, a nature of which HE hates?



I see your argument, but I can't help thinking, why would God increase women's childbirth pains then since it was Eve that sinned and not the women afterwards? Why should all men have to work hard and toil and win their bread by the sweat of their brow since it was Adam that sinned and not other people? (Genesis 3:16-19)

 2007/9/2 19:59Profile









 Re:

Gen 3:16-19

16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken:[b][i] for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.[/b][/i]
KJV

Rom 6:23
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV


It don't get much plainer than that on what physical death is and also why. Through Jesus is the only way we can overcome that death.

As for how old a child has to be responsible for rejecting Christ, I will leave that answer for the Judge, our Lord, who knows all of all hearts.

One of the biggest hinderances on a person accepting Christ is self. A child does not need to be taught about self. We are born centered on self, all of us. Only Christ can change a heart.



 2007/9/2 20:01
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
People do not die physicaly because of sin, the evidence for this claim is that plants and animals die but they never sin.
Therefore sin is not the reason for physical death.



Yes, it is and the creation is subject to its sorrows because of what Adam did; not because of what you or I do.

[color=0033FF]Rom. 5:12 (KJVS) Wherefore, as [u]by one man[/u] sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom. 5:15 (KJVS) But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if [u]through the offence of one many be dead[/u], much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom. 5:16 (KJVS) And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for [u]the judgment was by one to condemnation[/u], but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

Rom. 5:17 (KJVS) For if [u]by one man’s offence death reigned by one[/u]; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom. 5:18 (KJVS) Therefore as [u]by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation[/u]; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom. 5:19 (KJVS) For as [u]by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners[/u], so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
[/color]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/9/3 15:18Profile





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