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philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
And then we see this happening to them after His return:
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" John 20:22 (KJV)
Is this not so?
Not so. The Spirit comes to those who would otherwise be orphaned. This is the context of John 14-16. It is the Spirit who comes 'in Christ's place' as 'another comforter'. This fulfillment could only take place if Christ were personally absent.
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As any "objective" reader of the scripture can see
This kind of comment makes discussion very difficult. If you can't control your frustration with people who don't see your point of view and learn to discuss courtiously we shall end our conversation. _________________ Ron Bailey
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2007/9/3 15:00 | Profile |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
You better watch it Philologos, they might start calling you a Calvinist.
In spite of all my protestations folks occasionally do. ;-) At the lst stock-taking I was a 1-point Calvinist and slipping.
I am not Calvinist believing strongly in Wesley's concept of Prevenient Grace. However I do believe regeneration is far more that what we see in the evangelical movement. _________________ Ron Bailey
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2007/9/3 15:04 | Profile |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
It is a blessed moment when we are born again and a new heart is created in us after the image of God. It is a more blessed moment when, in this new heart, Christ Himself is born and Christmas time is reproduced in us as we, in some real sense, become incarnations of the living Christ.
I appreciate this comment and especially coming from the CMA stable. I have enormous sympathy with the second blessing holiness people but I struggle to see Baptism in Spirit as subsequent to Regeneration. _________________ Ron Bailey
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2007/9/3 15:07 | Profile |
hmmhmm Member
Joined: 2006/1/31 Posts: 4994 Sweden
| Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote: but I struggle to see Baptism in Spirit as subsequent to Regeneration.
as in one and the same ? _________________ CHRISTIAN
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2007/9/3 15:11 | Profile |
IRONMAN Member
Joined: 2004/6/15 Posts: 1924 IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| Re: | | Greetings bro Ron in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
you said:
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So you are saying that Christ entered them at the event of Acts 2 in the coming of the Holy Spirit? In other words, that Christ indwells a man or a woman only by receiving the Spirit?
Yes i do. Now prior to that when He taught them and walked with them they had not received Him in this sense. However, that the 12 were all chosen by Christ (even Judas, though to a different destiny) and 11 of them stayed with Him speaks to a Foreordination of God in which Mercy is shown to whomever He will show Mercy. Christ said that those which the Father had given Him would not be lost and that they so followed HIm, even after His death and Ascension without HOly Spirit indwelling them to me is a Divine Guarantee of being indwelt later. It speaks of the Mercy of God conditioning the heart of a man to receive what God has prepared.
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I believe that this a legitimate view but the vast majority of evangelical Christians do not believe this. They believe that Christ begins his indwelling as the result of a prayer and that the Holy Spirit indwells at the same time. This is why we have the emphasis on 'asking Christ into your heart' which is nowhere suggested in the scripture... so far as I am aware.
indeed many people emphasize asking Christ into your heart but the truth is many people who pray such a prayer don't change much after it. There must be a conviction of sin which precedes such a prayer if indeed that's the thing which God lays on the heart of a man to do. This conviction is of Holy Spirit and must lead a man to recognize his sins and the penalty of them so as to confess and repent. Without this there is no point in asking Christ into one's heart because there really is no reason to apart from being convicted of sin.
We have many people who claim to have Christ in their hearts but don't have the Spirit of God and it is evident. This can't be. Christ said that He is in us however this is through HOly Spirit who indwells us and whose Work it is to make us more like Christ on a day to day basis. i believe the sinner's prayer to be toothless without conviction of sin by Holy Spirit because if the heart hasn't been prepared, He can't come in and neither can Christ be formed in us.
Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN. _________________ Farai Bamu
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2007/9/3 15:15 | Profile |
| Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote:
Quote:
And then we see this happening to them after His return:
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost" John 20:22 (KJV)
Is this not so?
Not so. The Spirit comes to those who would otherwise be orphaned. This is the context of John 14-16. It is the Spirit who comes 'in Christ's place' as 'another comforter'. This fulfillment could only take place if Christ were personally absent.
Quote:
As any "objective" reader of the scripture can see
This kind of comment makes discussion very difficult. If you can't control your frustration with people who don't see your point of view and learn to discuss courtiously we shall end our conversation.
I am not frustrated. I am amazed at your willingness to ignore the scriptures; to twist to make them fit your theological bent. Ergo, I am not interested in accomodating your willful ignorance. Do I need forgiveness for this?
I submit this "stand alone" verse again to let it say what it says
"And when He had said this, [b][i]He breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit"[/b][/i].John 20:22 (NASB77)
Obviously, Jesus was present in the room.
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2007/9/3 16:27 | |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
I am amazed at your willingness to ignore the scriptures; to twist to make them fit your theological bent.
Goodbye. _________________ Ron Bailey
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2007/9/3 16:30 | Profile |
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2007/9/3 16:32 | |
philologos Member
Joined: 2003/7/18 Posts: 6566 Reading, UK
| Re: | | Quote:
as in one and the same ?
I think they emphasis different aspects of the same initiation into the life of Christ. BUT... I do not equate regeneration with decision or the kind of thing that frequently happens in the counselling room AND I don't look for physical phenomena to prove that the Spirit has come. Nevertheless I think the image of baptism is of a conscious event rather than an imperceptable merging into new life. _________________ Ron Bailey
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2007/9/3 16:35 | Profile |
hmmhmm Member
Joined: 2006/1/31 Posts: 4994 Sweden
| Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote: I do not equate regeneration with decision or the kind of thing that frequently happens in the counselling room AND I don't look for physical phenomena to prove that the Spirit has come
i dont either brother
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Nevertheless I think the image of baptism is of a conscious event rather than an imperceptable merging into new life.
you are talking about "baptism" of the spirit right?
I have spent much time meditating on thease things, but do you see that the baptism, filling , whatever name one can call it, cant be two entirely separate events?
i think there is far more to this then what we would perhaps find in our average church today. Myself attend a pentecostal church who for the most part are focused on one aspect of "baptism of the spirit".
I have not myself had a "second" blessing. I seek more of HIM, i want to have thease rivers of living water flowing from my inner being. I want to be filled with the spirit, walk in the spirit , live by the spirit. I am not sure they are describing the same thing, i am not sure they are one single event taking place after salvation, or if we can get it at the same time. But i have come to this, the spirit filled life, is far more then what the average Christian has.
And do you think it would be safe to say to be spirit filled is to be Christ-like?
_________________ CHRISTIAN
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2007/9/4 2:43 | Profile |