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 Re:


When we receive Jesus Christ we are sons. Paul further states that as sons, being baptized into His Body, sealed with that GUARANTEE of Promise, we now Grow up to MATURE sons.

1st John also clarifies this by saying of sons:

1. Children know their sins are forgiven

2. Young men have overcome the evil one, GROWING in the wisdom and Knowledge of HIM to become

3. Fathers who have known God from the beginning, or know and understand the plan of salvation from before the foundation of the World.

Paul says of himself in Corinthians that he is a FATHER, who we know sat 14 years on the backside of a mountain, just learning as the Lord revealed to Paul the Gospel According to the Mystery Romans 16:24-27. and waited another 8 while a tent maker before starting his ministry.

(Unfortunately we have so few MATURE Christians today, and that is why the Church is being tossed here and there with every wind of doctrine that comes along)

Hebrews also Clarifies that God has scourged EVERY son whom He has received for the purpose of becoming partakers of His Holiness being taken out of this world.
(1 Peter 4)
(2 Peter 1)
Those who have not been scourged are illigitimate.

Ephesians 4 gives a picture of this GROWING to Maturity within the Family of God. Those outside have no part in this.




Ephesians 4:4There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

6One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.

8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

You ARE a Son, and an Heir if the Spirit of God in in you.

In Christ
Katy-Did

 2007/9/1 17:05
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
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 Re:

Quote:
When we receive Jesus Christ we are sons.


What do we mean by 'receiving Jesus Christ'? I know what evangelicalism means but what does the Bible mean by this phrase?

From the Bible perspective 'How do we receive Christ?'

BTW Greg has an article of mine here on Sermonindex entitled...

[url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=14601]Receiving Christ[/url]

It explains in greater detail my discomfort with the evangelical phraseology and the way most of us use it.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/9/1 17:23Profile
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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 Re: Christ in you; event or process

Ron's:

Quote:
What is interesting in these two quotations is that in each instance ‘Christ within’ is a consequence of an earlier event. In Galatians Paul is saying that he believes that ‘Christ’ is not yet formed in those who have abandoned him for another gospel.



It seems to me that when folk no longer receive the Spirit- they opt for a substitute. Generally that substitute has something to do with laws or rules designed to 'hem in' the flesh and establishing a series of outward expressions of faith that counterfeit true Christianity. In short, it is a variant form of the Old Covenant.

The 'event' of receiving the Spirit did not happen- and they apparently were scrambling to get things going. But in order for the fruit of the Spirit to 'manifest' the Spirit has to be present. We never read statements like, "the fruit of the Law" or the "fruit of self- discipline", etc. It is the fruit of the SPirit of God, the evidence that He is in us working in us both to will and to do His good pleasure.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/9/1 18:55Profile
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 Re:

This is a quote from the article:

Quote:
Sometimes the struggles of the ‘seeker’ could be alleviated by an occasional word of direction from a ‘helper’ pointing them to Christ Himself or to a word of promise. Later this spontaneous ‘help’ became more formalised in ‘counselling techniques’ which led the seeker through a prescribed list of Bible verses which brought them to the place of understanding and enabled them to pray the ‘sinner’s prayer’. It was much more efficient than spending hours in prayer, apparently.



I think one of the primary assumptions made by the minister or counselor is that the person has a good grasp of what and who they are even agreeing to or 'receiving'. Paul was at times 'long preaching' as an attempt to make sure that he had delivered all necessary for faith in Christ to become effectual. Paul's objective, so it seems to me, was not to try to 'score' a soul for God as if God were keeping score or something; but to bring the person into genuine reconciliation with God that resulted in communion with Him. He was not content to get the person to agree to some points of facts and doctrine; he was looking for that miracle of death and resurrection that takes place in a life that is truly baptised 'into' Jesus Christ.

I think this is why we read how Jesus talked about taking up their cross and following Him, etc. There was always a sense that when a person left off to follow Christ- that they left [i]all[/i] to follow him. Not their God-given responsibilities; but the things that they used to find fulfillment in. They left off from those things wherein having been born again they are now ashamed of. This is a radical transformation. And that transformation has to be the indwelling presence of Christ by the Holy Spirit that comes in when we cease to resist Him and take hold of Him with all that is within us.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/9/1 19:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
We get HIS spirit at the new spiritual birth.



Is this right? or do we receive new birth when we receive his life? and how do we receive the life of him who is at the Father's right hand unless it is by receiving His Spirit?

John 3:3-8
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
KJV

This is the question I am posing. We speak so frequently of 'receiving Christ' but what biblical basis do we have for believing that a person 'receives Christ' because they pray a pattern prayer?

Whether one receives His Spirit is all dependant upon whether when they prayed that pattern of prayer with the mouth and it was with the heart also. He knows all. Others will see a it change in their life. He also knows when it was only done with the mouth.
He also gives some insight to those who have His spirit on whether another person has His spirit or not, by their lifestle and conversation and at times knowledge and understand of His Word as they either grow or glot.

 2007/9/1 22:27
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Joined: 2007/2/16
Posts: 231
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 Re: Christ in you; event or process

Christ in you, event or process.
Heres my story.
I said the sinners prayer when I was 19.
tried to be a christian, never quit sinning but tried to.
I went to church, married a churched girl, had kids who I took to church.
I was angry, hateful, hurtful, would always confess my sins, but ultimately not be able to stop sinning, which ultimately didnt want to.
My marriage of 17 years was about to end and I was angry with God and everyone else.
I finally ended up going to an accountability group trying to fix my marriage, basically wanted to fix my wife.
I was the one who was broken!
During one meeting when everyone was giving me advice about my wife I heard the spirit of God speak to me and he said, give me your heart, follow me and I will fix your marriage.
I sat there and with just my mind in front of 6 other guys I said to God, ok God you win.
I starting to day Lord, Im going to read the bible and what ever I discover Im going to do, follow no matter what.
AT that instant I felt something like this.
I felt like warm honey hit the top of my head and spread down my neck, shoulders arms and my whole body.
Every one in the room said, hey what's going on with you. It looks like a light just came on or something with you.
I had an event, and everything in my life that God hated just dropped away from me, I started for the first time to be a true follower of Christ and I knew it. My wretchedness he took away from me.
Now as the years have gone by I realise im in a process as well, due to the fact I can look back over each year and realise im different than the year before, God is always showing me things about myself that need to change, Repent of and allow him to mold me into who he wants me to be, for him, for his glory. It's by this grace he gave me to life for him and his grace to be empowered to change for him.
I could never do it before, because I was lost and unfortunately my original church lacked the power to make me realise this, they said I was always saved. maby I could play the game, but be rest assured, unless Christ truly comes into you and changes you, you will be and are lost.
I hope this helps someone.
God Bless.


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howard

 2007/9/2 1:27Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Question #2 When were they justified? When they accepted the free gift and were saved, they are justified by HIS blood and if they are justfied by HIS blood they are saved.

question # 3 When did they receive the spirit?When they confessed and accepted HIM as both Lord and savior and also acknowledging HIM as Lord and received HIS SPIRIT and became a new creation.



Can you explain the difference between these two?


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Josh Parsley

 2007/9/2 2:00Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
Whether one receives His Spirit is all dependant upon whether when they prayed that pattern of prayer with the mouth and it was with the heart also. He knows all. Others will see a it change in their life. He also knows when it was only done with the mouth.
He also gives some insight to those who have His spirit on whether another person has His spirit or not, by their lifestle and conversation and at times knowledge and understand of His Word as they either grow or glot.



I'm not sure that you have seen my point yet. My point is that in the New Testament people received Christ by receiving the Spirit, they did not receive the Spirit as a consequence of 'receiving Christ' in the modern evangelical sense of that phrase.

We make an assumption that anyone who has Christ has the Spirit but this is the opposite to the New Testament which seems to show that anyone who receives the Spirit receives Christ.

The question lurking behind my question is 'how does a man or a woman know that they have 'received the Spirit'?


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Ron Bailey

 2007/9/2 2:38Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
...I had an event, and everything in my life that God hated just dropped away from me, I started for the first time to be a true follower of Christ and I knew it. My wretchedness he took away from me.
Now as the years have gone by I realise im in a process as well...


Thank you for sharing this testimony. I rejoice to hear it. If I may summarise... you had a process followed by an event followed by a process. I think this is much closer to the biblical pattern. My anxieties lie with those who have never genuinely 'had an event' but who have been told, and have believed, that they 'received Christ and hence his Spirit' when they were counselled.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/9/2 2:44Profile
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IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Christ in you; event or process...Both

Greetings bro Ron in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

you ask an interesting question and that Christ entering into a man's heart has been reduced to a formula, the sinner's prayer is quite a terrible thing i believe. i believe that Christ entering the heart of a man is not so much contingent on the man as it is on God Himself showing Mercy. The man can't call on God unless God calls him first, see John 6 for example. The point at which a man is called by God is somewhere before the setting of the foundations of the world, that is the same point at which Christ was slain for the redemption of creation when creation was a concept in the Mind of God, see Revelation chapt 13. So what shall we say then? Christ enters the heart of the man whom God has called because of the Mercy of the Father. What this Mercy then does is allow for this which we see in Acts 2:

[b]35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool. 36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. 37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? [/b] this question is the same as what you are asking to which Peter answers:

[i][b]38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. [/b][/i]

in John 6 we see the tragedy of the fallen state of man, unable to even know he is depraved and in need of Salvation except God shows him so and gives him grace to call upon the Son. That is nobody can come to the Son except the Father draws him and this results in the obedience to what Peter calls upon these men to do (namely confessing and repenting of sin) in response to being pricked in their hearts by the conviction of Holy Spirit. this is the event part.at this point, Holy Spirit begins to work in a man's life to conform him to the Image of Jesus and this is the process part.

in the end, it all rests on God and His Mercy without which we have no clue we need Salvation let alone ability to gather up what it takes to ask for it.

Grace and Peace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/9/2 3:35Profile





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