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nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

I read some info on Jewish weddings once that was very interesting. It sheds some light on parallels to the church. Too bad that I have long forgotten the source!

The man and woman would become betrothed which already implied an exclusive relationship where adultery was possible. Then the man would build them a place to live and he couldn't go get his woman until his father declared his preparations adequate. Then he went upon that declaration, regardless of the time of day, to get her. She had to be ready and waiting at all times for months until he came and took her away. The wedding was not considered official, or whatever you want to call it, until the father led them back to their home after the party and they consummated it.

We await the father's command for our groom to come get us and take us to the prepared home.

I think it is obvious that sodomites cannot become married to each other in God's view. They are just practicing unnatural disgusting sin. No more than a man can become married to a sheep (might be next in the legislature) just because he practices that perversion.

 2004/5/21 14:28Profile









 Re:

http://www.geocities.com/divorceandremarriage/

 2006/5/8 13:30









 Re:

Heres a good link that shows how binding betrothal was/is.

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=995&letter=B&search=betrothal

In Deut 22 we see the betrothed wife being put to death for willful sexual sin just the same as the consummated wife.
Both were fully bound in marriage, the betrothal 'custom' didnt nullify that fact.

Quote:

nobody wrote:
I read some info on Jewish weddings once that was very interesting. It sheds some light on parallels to the church. Too bad that I have long forgotten the source!

The man and woman would become betrothed which already implied an exclusive relationship where adultery was possible. Then the man would build them a place to live and he couldn't go get his woman until his father declared his preparations adequate. Then he went upon that declaration, regardless of the time of day, to get her. She had to be ready and waiting at all times for months until he came and took her away. The wedding was not considered official, or whatever you want to call it, until the father led them back to their home after the party and they consummated it.

We await the father's command for our groom to come get us and take us to the prepared home.

I think it is obvious that sodomites cannot become married to each other in God's view. They are just practicing unnatural disgusting sin. No more than a man can become married to a sheep (might be next in the legislature) just because he practices that perversion.

 2006/5/13 12:01
Sealed
Member



Joined: 2006/5/13
Posts: 22
Milwaukee WI

 Re:

All marriages are covenants that God has joined together for life. The scriptures are clear on this throughout.

Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16:18"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

I Corinthians 7:39 A wife is bound as long as her husband lives; but if her husband is dead, she is free to be married to whom she wishes, only in the Lord.

Romans 7:2-3 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

Matthew 19:6"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."

God joins us together, and no man has the authority to separate that which he has joined.

I Corinthians 7:10-11 But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

It is clear from scripture that even a marriage with someone who is not God's child, is still joined by Him and cannot be separated.

You can read a complete study on the subject at [url=http://sealedeternal.bravehost.com/1.html]Biblical Marriage and Divorce[/url]

Sealed

 2006/5/13 13:36Profile
brentw
Member



Joined: 2005/12/14
Posts: 440
Ohio

 Re:

Quote:
It is clear from scripture that even a marriage with someone who is not God's child, is still joined by Him and cannot be separated.



I think your walking on a fine line here...by this qoute.

Furthermore is someone TRULY married IN THE EYES OF GOD IF, IF their not married by the church?? Can a government marry a couple and be ordained of GOD?? Does the government have spiritual jurisdiction?? Did the government marry in the bible or the church???


_________________
Brent

 2006/5/13 13:53Profile









 Re:

Quote:
All marriages are covenants that God has joined together for life. The scriptures are clear on this throughout.


Really?
Then you call Jesus a liar when HE has said 'except'.
Isnt that right, sealedeternal?

for a refutation to Sealedeternals doctrinal errors, please see this page...

http://www.geocities.com/divorceandremarriage/se-deut22-24.html


I see youre still pushing the fabrication that God is so absent minded that He had to amend Deut 22 with Deut 24 approx 3.5 days later.
That should have been your first clue that your doctrine was/is errant, SE.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest I say, not the Lord, that if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she consents to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and he consents to live with her, she must not send her husband away.

It is clear from scripture that even a marriage with someone who is not God's child, is still joined by Him and cannot be separated.


No, what is clear is that *IF* the marriage is mutually content as the greek clearly states, then the believer is to remain.
http://www.geocities.com/divorceandremarriage/1cor7study.html

If the unbeliever deserts, the the believer is as free as any other slave that has bet freed from his master.


For refutations to doctrinal error concerning Gods holy union of marriage....
http://www.geocities.com/divorceandremarriage/index.html

Its nice to see you here, Sealedeternal, please, lets have a conversation so that we can refute your doctrine for a whole new group of folks here as well :-)

Quote:
God joins us together, and no man has the authority to separate that which he has joined.


interesting.
then you call Moses the greatest lawbreaker of all time as HE not only permitted divorce but also ADDED instruction for divorce right into Gods own law.

are you sure you even understand what youre studying?

The fact is Jesus is dealing with FRIVOLOUS divorce in Matt 19....and all throughout the NT....just as the Jews had been permitted by MOSES (a MAN) to do, as our Lord shows.

this permission for frivolous divorce (for EVERY cause) is laid out in writing in Deut 24:1-4, altho divorce had been permitted BEFORE this time (see Leviticus 21, the requirements for priests and high priests) but then was REGULATED with Deut 24:1-4 by placing requirements/restrictions on the man putting his wife away.

Jesus clearly is NOt doing away with what God has shown as a breech of covenant in the Law (sexual sin) as Jesus himself gives an exception concerning this divorce.

And we know your doctrine is errant when we see this huge contradiction you present when you say that Jesus is doing away with divorce for sexual sin when speaking to the pharisees in Matt 19, then He turns right around and says 'except for harlotry'.

I think Im going to add a page to my site for this HUGE contradiction of yours that you seem to be unable to see.
This will help folks who read your posts see that youre not adding up the facts correctly....especially when one of your own doctrine (alaska from crosswalk) has even pointed out your inconsistancies.

READERs see this page here
http://forums.crosswalk.com/m_690665/mpage_48/tm.htm
Even SEs own have tried to correct his blantant error, but he persists in it anyway.

 2006/5/13 14:29









 Re: Marriage, Divorce, and ReMarriage.. Toward a Biblical Perspective


Dear Sealed,

There is a lot more to marriage than you mention, just as there is a lot more to divorce than you don't mention.

Not quoting Matthew's gospel, the gospel which paid particular attention to the Jewish perspective, was a mistake.

EDIT: Apologies. I see you were... selective.... :-(

Matthew 19 continues
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except [it be] for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery. (KJV)

EDIT end.


If you are seeking to convince other Bible students you have looked at every relevant scripture, and understood them, then you [i]have[/i] to find a place for the exception and its context given by our Lord, in [i]your[/i] dissertation.

This becomes even more vital, when faced with the obvious acceptance Jesus gives to a woman who had five marriages in her past. (John 4)

 2006/5/13 14:48









 Re:

Good catch Dorcas.
SE, like lastblast, is very selective in what he tries to present, rejecting Gods WHOLE council on this matter.

Im glad he has shown up here and prayerfully is willing to keep posting for all to see.

Those interested please see my page here for dialogue with SE.
http://www.geocities.com/divorceandremarriage/se-deut22-24.html

 2006/5/13 15:07









 Re:

...

 2006/5/13 15:16
Sealed
Member



Joined: 2006/5/13
Posts: 22
Milwaukee WI

 Re:

Quote:
Dear Sealed,

There is a lot more to marriage than you mention, just as there is a lot more to divorce than you don't mention.

Not quoting Matthew's gospel, the gospel which paid particular attention to the Jewish perspective, was a mistake.



I cover all of those verses in the link that I had at the end of my statement. Here's the pertinent part to your question:

God’s word says that we are joined together until one spouse dies, and that remarriage is only an option after the death of a spouse. Therefore, If anyone remarries while their spouse is still alive, God says it’s not a legitimate marriage in His eyes, but actually an adulterous relationship, and you will be judged as an adulterer if continue in your sin. Jesus Christ Himself made it very clear that marriage lasts a lifetime, and divorce and remarriage is adultery.

Matthew 5:32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, "Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any reason at all?" 4And He answered and said, "Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning MADE THEM MALE AND FEMALE, 5 and said, 'FOR THIS REASON A MAN SHALL LEAVE HIS FATHER AND MOTHER AND BE JOINED TO HIS WIFE, AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH'? 6"So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." 7 They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" 8 He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. 9"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." 10The disciples said to Him, "If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry." 11But He said to them, "Not all men can accept this statement, but only those to whom it has been given. 12"For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

These two sections of scripture, make it clear that divorce and remarriage are adultery, with one exception which is immorality or unchastity. Many people misunderstand the exception clause that Jesus gives here, and try to use these verses to suggest that Jesus is allowing divorce if someone commits adultery. This cannot be true for many reasons.

First of all the word for “immorality” or “unchastity” is (Greek "porneia") and "adultery" is (Greek "moicheia"). Both words are used in the same verses and each have a distinct meaning (Matthew 5:32; 15:19; 19:19; Mark 7:21, 1 Cor.6:9, Gal.5:19, Heb.13:4). These two different words with two different meanings clearly describe two different acts. If Jesus meant adultery, He surely would have used the term for adultery -- “moichao.” He was certainly not using terms carelessly, especially in disputing with legal experts. If he wanted to say that adultery is the exception, he would have used the proper word for adultery, rather than “immorality” which is a broad term that could mean different things in different contexts, which leads us to the second reason it isn’t adultery.

The context of these verses are of the Pharisees (Jewish law experts) asking “why did Moses command….” referring to the Jewish Moseic Law, and Matthew himself being a Levite was writing this gospel primarily to the Jews. In that context it is clear that we need to refer back to the moseic Law in order to understand what is being taught here, yet many Christian teachers tear these verses out of context in order to create a loophole for divorce and remarriage.

In Jewish marriage there was a betrothal period which was similar to an engagement, except that it was far more binding than what we are familiar with. They were considered husband and wife at the time of betrothal, even though the marriage hadn’t been consummated yet. The man could give her a writ of divorce during the betrothal, if he found her not to be a virgin, but could not divorce her for any other reason. This was because a clause of the marriage contract had not been fulfilled, in that the girl was not a virgin, as the man was led to believe when the contract was drawn up. The husband is the one who is being wronged in this case, because he has fulfilled his obligations. The girl and her father are the ones acting unjustly here by asserting that she was a virgin when she wasn't.

This law is covered in:

Deut. 22:13-21"If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and {then} turns against her, and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, {but} when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,' then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the {evidence} of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate. "The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her; and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city. "So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him, and they shall fine him a hundred {shekels} of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days. "But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin, then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

This is the only “divorce” that is allowed anywhere in the Bible, and you’ll notice that it is before the consummation of the marriage, or immediately after. Many people try to use the immorality clause to suggest that God tolerates divorce, but this was specific to the Jews, and only before the consummation or immediately after. Once a couple was betrothed, they were considered husband and wife, and they needed a bill of divorcement in order to depart from one another. One example of this is regarding Mary and Joseph. Scripture says Mary was Joseph's wife (Matthew 1:20,24, Luke 2:5). But at the same time, she was betrothed to him:

Matthew 1:18-19, "Now the birth of Jesus Christ was as follows: when His mother Mary had been betrothed to Joseph, before they came together she was found to be with child by the Holy Spirit. And Joseph her husband, being a righteous man and not wanting to disgrace her, planned to send her away secretly.

Deuteronomy 22:23-24 is another passage that defines a "betrothed virgin" as a "neighbor's wife" :

Deuteronomy 22:23-24, "If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and {another} man finds her in the city and lies with her, then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

Many false teachers will claim that Jesus can’t be talking about the betrothal period because He refers to them as husband and wife, and the betrothal is only an engagement and therefore Jesus wasn’t referring to it. As you can see they were husband and wife from the moment they were betrothed, and couldn’t divorce for any other reason except if unchastity was found. Deuteronomy 22:19 says that if she was innocent of his claims, “she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.” The law of no divorce until death do you part was in effect, except for this one very limited exception.

Interestingly, it is this exception that God uses to divorce Israel during their betrothal. The Jewish people would reap what they had sown, by being hard hearted and dealing treacherously with their wives, they would be divorced from God for their harlotry.

Hosea 2:19 "I will betroth you to Me forever;
Yes, I will betroth you to Me in righteousness and in justice,
In lovingkindness and in compassion, 20 And I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness. Then you will know the LORD.

Jeremiah 3:1 God says, "If a husband divorces his wife And she goes from him And belongs to another man, Will he still return to her? Will not that land be completely polluted? But you are a harlot with many lovers; Yet you turn to Me," declares the LORD.

8 "And I saw that for all the adulteries of faithless Israel, I had sent her away and given her a writ of divorce, yet her treacherous sister Judah did not fear; but she went and was a harlot also.

The third reason that the exception clause cannot be for adultery is that it would defy common sense. Adultery cannot be both the sin and the justification for not being in sin at the same time. In other words, if divorce and remarriage is adultery, and adultery is the justification for divorce and remarriage, then any divorce and remarriage automatically becomes legal. It is obvious that Jesus Christ would not make such an error in reasoning.

The fourth reason that this cannot be referring to adultery in the consummated marriage, is that Jesus specifically says in verse 8 that this was never God’s plan, and that’s why the two Gospels that were written primarily to the Gentiles do not offer any exception. The Gospel of Luke was written primarily to the Greeks, and Mark was written primarily to the Romans. It is absurd to suggest that Mark and Luke would be so careless as to miss such important information as whether or not Jesus taught that "adultery" is grounds for divorce in their gospels, knowing that the audience of their day didn't necessarily have the ability to read Matthew's gospel along with theirs as we do today. The reason Mark and Luke do not mention the exceptive clause is they were addressing a predominately Gentile audience while Matthew was addressing a Jewish one. Then why do so many Gentile Pastors refer only to Matthew, and totally ignore Mark and Luke when teaching on marriage?

Mark 10:11 And He said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her; 12 and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Notice that if divorce itself nullified the marriage, then if "single" or "unmarried" status was obtained through divorce, it certainly would not have been adultery for such people to then go on to marry someone else. But Jesus teaches otherwise. Since remarriage after divorce is adulterous, therefore divorce does not nullify a marriage.

Luke 16:15 And He said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God. 16"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. 17"But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. 18"Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

The second half of verse 18 speaks of a woman who did not take the active part in divorcing her husband, but rather was the one divorced by her husband, just like in Matthew 5:32, which says that he “makes her commit adultery” by divorcing her. There is no distinction between who left who, as far as adultery is concerned. Some teach that the “innocent” party can remarry, but they are contradicting our Lord and Savior, and causing others to commit adultery. There is no provision anywhere in the Bible for either party to remarry without committing adultery.

Jesus also teaches in Luke 16:18 that a man that marries a divorced woman is living in adultery. Even if he had never been married himself, because he’s guilty of marrying another mans wife, even if the other man divorced her.

Some people claim that Deut. 24 shows that God tolerates divorce, but it is in fact regulating the practice that had been instituted in Deuteronomy 22:13-21.

Deuteronomy 24: 1-4 "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts {it} in her hand and sends her out from his house, and she leaves his house and goes and becomes another man's {wife,} and if the latter husband turns against her and writes her a certificate of divorce and puts {it} in her hand and sends her out of his house, or if the latter husband dies who took her to be his wife, {then} her former husband who sent her away is not allowed to take her again to be his wife, since she has been defiled; for that is an abomination before the LORD, and you shall not bring sin on the land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

The wording here is almost identical to Deuteronomy 22. The man found indecency (immorality) in her during the betrothal period. It has to be during the betrothal period because that's the only time he would be allowed under the law to give a writ of divorce. There is no new grounds for divorce offered here, but these verses are simply regulating an existing practice. He was therefore allowed to divorce her, since that was just grounds. She then became betrothed to another man. If that man gave her a writ, or died, the first man can't remarry her.

This new regulation states that a man is not required to have the woman stoned to death as Deut. 22 commanded, but could give her a writ of divorce instead. It also says that if he does divorce her legally, and she becomes another man’s wife, he cannot change his mind and take her back later. He had the right to give her a writ under Jewish law, because he assumed she was a virgin, but found indecency in her. He still could have married her when he found out she was indecent, but chose to reject her. The principle being taught here is that if he rejected her then when he found her to be indecent, then he has no right to accept her later on, after she was with another man. The real meaning is prophetic, and reveals that God is not going to take Israel back for her immorality.

Sealed

 2006/5/13 16:17Profile





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