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 Sirach, chapter 2


[b]Sirach, chapter 2[/b]

1. My child, when you come to serve the Lord, prepare yourself for testing. 2. Set your heart right and be steadfast, and do not be impetuous in time of calamity. 3. Cling to Him and do not depart, so that your last days may be prosperous. 4. Accept whatever befalls you, and in times of humiliation be patient. 5. For gold is tested in the fire, and those found acceptable, in the furnace of humiliation. 6. Trust in Him, and He will help you; make your ways straight, and hope in Him.

7. You who fear the Lord, wait for His mercy; do not stray, or else you may fall. 8. You who fear the Lord, trust in Him, and your reward will not be lost. 9. You who fear the Lord, hope for good things, for lasting joy and mercy. 10. Consider the generations of old and see: has anyone trusted in the Lord and been disappointed? Or has anyone persevered in the fear of the Lord and been forsaken? Or has anyone called upon Him and been neglected? 11. For the Lord is compassionate and merciful; He forgives sins and saves in time of distress.

12. Woe to timid hearts and to slack hands, and to the sinner who walks a double path! 13. Woe to the faint-hearted who have no trust! Therefore they will have no shelter. 14. Woe to you who have lost you nerve! What will you do when the Lord’s reckoning comes?

15. Those who fear the Lord do not disobey His Words, and those who love Him keep His ways. 16. Those who fear the Lord seek to please Him, and those who love Him are filled with His law. 17. Those who fear the Lord prepare their hearts, and humble themselves before Him. Let us fall into the Hands of the Lord, but not into the hands of mortals; for equal to His Majesty is His Mercy, and equal to His Name are His works.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/8/27 19:59Profile









 Re: Sirach, chapter 2


Hi Greg,

I don't quite know why you've posted this, as you didn't share that thought with us, but there is something not quite right about the way all responsibility is laid on the believer, to make some unstated grade, and this makes me uncomfortable.

eg

Quote:
5. For gold is tested in the fire, [b]and those found acceptable, in the furnace of humiliation[/b].

There is a nastiness lurking under these words, which is not consistent with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Quote:
10. Consider the generations of old and see: has anyone trusted in the Lord and been disappointed? Or has anyone persevered in the fear of the Lord and been forsaken? Or has anyone called upon Him and been neglected?

These apparently rhetorical questions do not offer any answers. We are supposed to be too frightened to argue with them... :-(

Quote:
15. Those who fear the Lord do not disobey His Words, and those who love Him keep His ways. 16. Those who fear the Lord seek to please Him, and those who love Him are filled with His law.

Who decides whether a persom has feared enough or loved enough...? These questions don't really help us with our relationship [i]with God[/i], I believe.

 2007/8/27 21:28
Swordbearer
Member



Joined: 2007/7/16
Posts: 51


 Re: Sirach, chapter 2

What is "Sirach"? I am assuming it is part of the Apocrypha, but I could be mistaken.


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Aaron

 2007/8/27 21:50Profile









 Re: Sirach, chapter 2

Quote:
Consider the generations of old and see: has anyone trusted in the Lord and been disappointed?

Perfect timing Greg. I read this just the other day in John Bunyun's book, "Abounding Grace to the Chief of sinners". Bunyun heard the LORD speak this to him in his most trying moment. Bunyun searched the scriptures for a year trying to find that in the bible, but alas he said I found it in a book that we do not consider the canon of scripture, but he said, the words gave him so much joy and peace during his trial.

So I wanted to get a copy of this book to read it in it's context and lo and behold here it is. Now thats got to be the LORD!

 2007/8/27 22:17









 Re: Sirach, chapter 2

Wonderful words, brother, thanks for sharing! My soul was blessed and encouraged in reading them.

 2007/8/27 22:27
swsojourner
Member



Joined: 2003/10/3
Posts: 167


 Re:

Quote:
Quote:

5. For gold is tested in the fire, and those found acceptable, in the furnace of humiliation.

There is a nastiness lurking under these words, which is not consistent with my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.



"Behold, I have refined you but not as silver, I have chosen you in the furnace of affliction" Isaiah 48:10

"For he knows the way I take; when he has tried me, I shall come forth as gold" -- Job 23:10


Quote:
10. Consider the generations of old and see: has anyone trusted in the Lord and been disappointed? Or has anyone persevered in the fear of the Lord and been forsaken? Or has anyone called upon Him and been neglected? These apparently rhetorical questions do not offer any answers. We are supposed to be too frightened to argue with them... :-(



"Can a man scoop fire into his lap without being burned ?" -- Proverbs

see also Job for examples of rhetorical questions, pretty much all throughout the book, such as --

"Does the wild donkey bray when he has grass, or the ox low over his fodder ? Can that which is tasteless be eaten without salt, or is there any taste in the juice of the mallow ?"


Quote:
15. Those who fear the Lord do not disobey His Words, and those who love Him keep His ways. 16. Those who fear the Lord seek to please Him, and those who love Him are filled with His law.

Who decides whether a persom has feared enough or loved enough...? These questions don't really help us with our relationship with God, I believe.



By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. 1 John

jsut a short summary off the top of my head

I sincerely hope this helps


_________________
Karsten Nordmo

 2007/8/27 22:41Profile









 Re: Sirach, chapter 2

Greg, I'm surprised you posted this piece from Ecclesiasticus...

Has something changed?

 2007/8/28 1:48









 Re: Sirach 2


swsojourner, thanks for the time you took to reply to my post.

I, also, can find words from the Bible to line up beside some of the statements in Sirach 2, but there is a [i]difference[/i], between the spirit of absolute truth in scripture and the subtle adulteration of truth which I perceive in the Apocrypha.

I am aware of how easily man makes assumptions based on his preconceptions, because I've done it myself, having laboured under teachings in the past, which are [u]unable[/u] to bring the kind of life and hope which we find even in the [i]darkest[/i] moments of the Old Testament.

Please be clear though, I'm not saying there is [i]no[/i] truth in these statements; but, there is little which brings us [i]closer to God[/i] in them.

I believe there is a [i]much[/i] greater revelation in Christ, His life, His words, His mind, in what those who knew Him wrote about Him, and in what Paul shares and declares of the effect he experienced, of believing and co-operating with Him under the power of the Holy Spirit. These [u]are[/u] life, compared with Sirach.

OK. I realise Sirach doesn't make these claims, but I believe Christians should easily see clearly how far short the words of Sirach fall.


 2007/8/28 8:48









 Re: Sirach chapter 2


Here is a link by way of introduction to Sirach, from the New American Bible:

[url=http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/sirach/intro.htm]http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/sirach/intro.htm[/url]


Here is the Prologue to Sirach,(google), from the old King James Apocrypha.

Prologue to Sirach
[A Prologue made by an uncertain Author]

This Jesus was the son of Sirach, and grandchild to Jesus of the same name with him: this man therefore lived in the latter times, after the people had been led away captive, and called home a again, and almost after all the prophets. Now his grandfather Jesus, as he himself witnesseth, was a man of great diligence and wisdom among the Hebrews, who did not only gather the grave and short sentences of wise men, that had been before him, but himself also uttered some of his own, full of much understanding and wisdom. When as therefore the first Jesus died, leaving this book almost perfected, Sirach his son receiving it after him left it to his own son Jesus, who, having gotten it into his hands, compiled it all orderly into one volume, and called it Wisdom, intitulings it both by his own name, his father's name, and his grandfather's; alluring the hearer by the very name of Wisdom to have a greater love to the study of this book. It containeth therefore wise sayings, dark sentences, and parables, and certain particular ancient godly stories of men that pleased God; also his prayer and song; moreover, what benefits God had vouchsafed his people, and what plagues he had heaped upon their enemies. This Jesus did imitate Solomon, and was no less famous for wisdom and learning, both being indeed a man of great learning, and so reputed also. [The Prologue of the Wisdom of Jesus the Son of Sirach.] Whereas many and great things have been delivered unto us by the law and the prophets, and by others that have followed their steps, for the which things Israel ought to be commended for learning and wisdom; and whereof not only the readers must needs become skillful themselves, but also they that desire to learn be able to profit them which are without, both by speaking and writing: my grandfather Jesus, when he had much given himself to the reading of the law, and the prophets, and other books of our fathers, and had gotten therein good judgment, was drawn on also himself to write something pertaining to learning and wisdom; to the intent that those which are desirous to learn, and are addicted to these things, might profit much more in living according to the law. Wherefore let me intreat you to read it with favour and attention, and to pardon us, wherein we may seem to come short of some words, which we have laboured to interpret. For the same things uttered in Hebrew, and translated into another tongue, have not the same force in them: and not only these things, but the law itself, and the prophets, and the rest of the books, have no small difference, when they are spoken in their own language. For in the eight and thirtieth year coming into Egypt, when Euergetes was king, and continuing there some time, I found a book of no small learning: therefore I thought it most necessary for me to bestow some diligence and travail to interpret it; using great watchfulness and skill in that space to bring the book to an end, and set it forth for them also, which in a strange country are willing to learn, being prepared before in manners to live after the law.



There are several Bible translators' versions of the Apocrypha online.

The thing which most strikes me from the selection of sayings thus preserved, is the emphasis on prosperity at a natural level, such as in health, wealth, long life and final reward.

The Bible offers a different balance though, [i]even in the Old Testament![/i]


from Daniel 8:25
'And he will destroy many while they are at ease.' NASB

The whole verse, KJV:
And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify [himself] in his heart, and [b]by peace shall destroy many[/b]: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. {[b]peace[/b]: or, [b]prosperity[/b]}


Genesis 15:1
After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: [b]I[/b] [i]am[/i] [b]thy shield[/b], [i]and[/i] [b]thy exceeding great reward[/b].

 2007/8/28 9:38









 Re: Sirach chapter 2


Dear Greg, (sermonindex)

I do realise there can be encouragement in the maxims brought to us from Sirach, but I hope you are not offended I would rather promote Christ.


I wanted to share something from Peter's first chapter, but in the end, the whole thing is necessary, and to avoid some of the assumptions which seem to litter the newer translati
ons, and the familiarity of the KJV, I'm posting Young.

Yes, it is an excercise in English analysis, (!) but well worth the trouble of finding the subjects and objects, the adjectives and meaning.

Considering the number of verses, there are very few words added to make the English flow. This means Peter's expression was very rich indeed.


[color=000099]1 Peter 1
"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied!

Blessed [i]is[/i] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you, who, in the power of God are being guarded, through faith, unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time, in which ye are glad, a little now, if it be necessary, being made to sorrow in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith--much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved--may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, in the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom, not having seen, ye love, in whom, now not seeing and believing, ye are glad with joy unspeakable and glorified, receiving the end of your faith--salvation of souls; concerning which salvation seek out and search out did prophets who concerning the grace toward you did prophesy, searching in regard to what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ that was in them was manifesting, testifying beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory after these, to whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us they were ministering these, which now were told to you (through those who did proclaim good news to you,) in the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, to which things messengers [angels] do desire to bend looking.

Wherefore having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, hope perfectly upon the grace that is being brought to you in the revelation of Jesus Christ, as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves to the former desires in your ignorance, but according as He who did call you [i]is[/i] holy, ye also, become holy in all behaviour, because it hath been written, `Become ye holy, because I am holy'; and if on the Father ye do call, who without acceptance of persons is judging according to the work of each, in fear the time of your sojourn pass ye, having known that, not with corruptible things--silver or gold--were ye redeemed from your foolish behaviour delivered by fathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and unspotted--Christ's-- foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, and manifested in the last times because of you, who through him do believe in God, who did raise out of the dead, and glory to him did give, so that your faith and hope may be in God.

Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly, being begotten again, not out of seed corruptible, but incorruptible, through a word of God--living and remaining--to the age; because all flesh [i]is[/i] as grass, and all glory of man as flower of grass; wither did the grass, and the flower of it fell away, and the saying of the Lord doth remain--to the age; and this is the saying that was proclaimed good news to you."[/color]



[size=x-small][color=006699][font=Georgia]Oh! GLORY TO GOD! What a WONDERFUL SALVATION!
[/font][/color][/size]

 2007/8/28 9:53





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