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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What is the lake of fire?

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Ilya
Member



Joined: 2007/8/24
Posts: 17


 What is the lake of fire?

Now. I still believe that the lake of fire is torment. But I have come to accept that the ceasing to exist is possible. I asked a moderator of another forum this same question. And he told me this:

Quote:
The phrase second death occurs 4 times, all in Revelation. I've provided the verses below:

Revelation 2:11
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

There is a verse in Revelation which holds a bit of a key.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The second death is the lake of fire. That being said, jump back up to 10 of the same chapter.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Now most people jump on that and say "oh the second death must be eternal damnation!" The key here is that this is a Hebraism in the Greek that means until the age of ages which means completion. Let me go back to the second death.

What does it mean to die? Shortest answer is to cease living. It is appointed unto all men to die once (Hebrews 9:27). This is the first death - the physical one that separates us from this physical body and this is most beautifully spoken of in Ecclesiastes 12.

All souls return to God.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

To bring you to the answer, I jump to Matthew and the words of Christ himself:

Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The second death is destruction.

Revelation 19:3
And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

This again goes to the Hebraism (through the Greek of the NT, of course) of smoke that rises forever and ever. The smoke of the pit goes up forever and ever, but that doesn't mean the torment does.

Revelation 3:5
He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Those thrown into the lake cease to exist.

 2007/8/27 0:08Profile
Peacecraft
Member



Joined: 2006/12/8
Posts: 93
USA

 Re: What is the lake of fire?

What about the verse that says "their worm shall never die" or the one that says "false prophets will undergo greater damnation"? See the verses below:


Isaiah 66:24 (King James Version)

24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Mark 9:43-49 (King James Version)
43And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

47And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:

48Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

49For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.


Matthew 23:14 (King James Version)

14Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.

Mark 12:40 (King James Version)

40Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

Luke 20:47 (King James Version)

47Which devour widows' houses, and for a shew make long prayers: the same shall receive greater damnation.

How can one recieve a greater damnation if to be damned is simply to die?


_________________
Laura

 2007/8/27 0:38Profile
Ilya
Member



Joined: 2007/8/24
Posts: 17


 Re:

Yeah. That's what I thought. Well, I'll show them those verses. Thanks!

 2007/8/27 1:10Profile









 Re: What is the lake of fire?

Quote:
This again goes to the Hebraism (through the Greek of the NT, of course) of smoke that rises forever and ever. The smoke of the pit goes up forever and ever, but that doesn't mean the torment does.



2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


Old Testament

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Dan 12:2 And many7227 of them that sleep4480, 3463 in the dust6083 of the earth127 shall awake,6974 some428 to everlasting5769 life,2416 and some428 to shame2781 and everlasting5769 contempt.1860

(The same number means it's the same word in the Hebrew)

Strong's defines this as:

H5769
עלם עולם
‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm
o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.




New Testament

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Mat 25:46 And2532 these3778 shall go away565 into1519 everlasting166 punishment:2851 but1161 the3588 righteous1342 into1519 life2222 eternal.166

(The same number means it's the same word in the Greek.)


Strong's defines this as:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
ahee-o'-nee-os
From G165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well): - eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began).

Thayer's defines it as:

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective
A Related Word by Thayers/Strongs Number: from G165
Citing in TDNT: 1:208, 31

Pro 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
Pro 30:6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

God bless you! -Abraham

 2007/8/27 1:15
Ilya
Member



Joined: 2007/8/24
Posts: 17


 Re:

Thank you very much abe! I will inform those people of their mistakes. Hopefully they'll change their ways.

 2007/8/27 1:21Profile
Ilya
Member



Joined: 2007/8/24
Posts: 17


 Re:

I got this comment.

Quote:
Well right, but nowhere does it say everlasting torture Ilya. It's "everlasting contempt" and "everlasting punishment." When one is thrown into the lake of fire, there is no coming back. There's not a thing here that says everlasting torture.

 2007/8/27 10:33Profile









 Re:

Yea, it's quite a stretch to say that the damned will cease to exist. The modern church has sought to make hell more palatable because who in their sin wants to hear about a lake of fire? It's too uncomfortable.

So what you end up with is the thought that hell is sheer darkness, seperated from God. This has been promoted very much by Billy Graham. Well, I dont know about y'all, but I was seperated from God before I was saved. But either way, it doesnt sound near as bad as "everlasting torment".

And now it is in vogue to think that sinners simply cease to exist. Well, I'm glad that no one told me this lie before I was saved because my response would have been "Eat, drink and be merry! For tomorrow we die!". (By the way, this is part of the Seventh Day Adventist heresy. No hell, sinners just die and thats it)

Folks... since Satan lies to us about everything, and since there is no truth in him at all (according to Jesus)... doesnt it stand to reason that he would not want us to know the truth about hell... "where the worm never dies"?

Krispy

 2007/8/27 13:19
Ilya
Member



Joined: 2007/8/24
Posts: 17


 Re:

I've got this response on the worm that never dies.

Quote:

Easily, this again says nothing about eternal torture:

Matthew 3:11-12
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

God is the unquenchable fire that will burn up those that don't make the cut. God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29) and for those of us that love him, there's nothing to fear. But, that fire will burn up those that work iniquity very quickly. It just as in Revelation where the smoke, on several occasions, rises for ever and ever. That's a Hebraism (in the Greek here, obviously) about the smoke rising and doesn't have anything to do with eternal torture. Man has just decided to fill that into the "gaps" - and I use that word very lightly. A little studying reveals it to be flawed.

 2007/8/27 21:31Profile
Peacecraft
Member



Joined: 2006/12/8
Posts: 93
USA

 Re:

he didn't say anything about the worm...


_________________
Laura

 2007/8/27 22:44Profile
Ilya
Member



Joined: 2007/8/24
Posts: 17


 Re:

He hinted it.


What do maggots become when they have matured? Flies. So the maggots or worms did not die. What do maggots feed on? Dead and rotting flesh. There will be enough dead bodies for the maggots to feed on, so that they can mature into flies.

I'll email you the link...

 2007/8/28 1:17Profile





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