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davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

My personal belief on this is the following-:

Suicide is a sin, but not the unpardonable sin.

If a born again believer commits suicide then that sin is judged at Calvary like all other sin. God put away sin at the Cross. Read Romans.

Suicide is a tragic reality, even for some believers, and they will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ not here on earth by us.

A believer is not expected to commit suicide just like they are not expected to sin.

1 John 2:1 (KJV)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And [b]if[/b] any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Notice that it's an 'if' in this verse and not a 'when'.

I hope it's clear from the above that in no way is suicide condoned in the Bible. It leaves a sad legacy in terms of a representation of Christ in someone's life, but nor is it condemned as a damnable offence.


_________________
David

 2007/8/28 10:49Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7470
Mississippi

 Re:

Kathleen,

I appreciate your testimony...

I have a couple questions for those who give the ones who commit suicide the benefit of the doubt:

1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?
2. If you have been tempted to commit suicide, why did you not proceed with it? Do you think the 'forces' that prevented you from doing so was exceptional? Do you not think it is common to all mankind?

Having said all this, I come back to this question: when a person dies, even from natural causes, one wonders whether he/she made it to glory. The bottom line is we [likely] do not know for certain. They are now dead and it is all in God's hands and we can do absolutely nothing to change this. So leave it there! We must be so very careful lest we fall into the trap of judging this person: even 'preaching them into heaven' is a form of judging! In my opinion, it is in our best interests to leave it alone: there is other work to be done...

My understanding...or did I muddy the waters some more?

ginnyrose




_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/8/28 11:07Profile
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

Quote:
1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?



Say, for example, a born again believer causes a motor vehicle crash by driving too fast and then dies in the crash along with 5 others in a pile up. That believer doesn't get a chance to repent do they?

and it's not suicide. It's sin and it's dealt with at the Cross! (N.B. This is not a licence to sin. Read Romans)

I think the problem here is that the thought of a Christian committing suicide is so difficult for our natural minds to accept. We tend to want to believe that God would never let it happen. In many cases He steps in to prevent it I'm sure, but He didn't make us robots. We still have free will.

Moreover, there is no Scripture to say it is impossible for a Christian to commit suicide.


_________________
David

 2007/8/28 11:29Profile









 Re:

The GREAT majority of "christians" are not Christians to begin with... even those who profess Christ as Lord. Could it be possible for a true Christian to committ suicide, I will leave that to God, but you would be very hard pressed to ever convince me of such a thing.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/8/28 11:48









 Re:

Quote:

davym wrote (in two posts):

My personal belief on this is the following-:

Suicide is a sin, but not the unpardonable sin.

If a born again believer commits suicide then that sin is judged at Calvary like all other sin. God put away sin at the Cross. Read Romans.

Suicide is a tragic reality, even for some believers, and they will be judged at the Judgement Seat of Christ not here on earth by us.

A believer is not expected to commit suicide just like they are not expected to sin.

1 John 2:1 (KJV)
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Notice that it's an 'if' in this verse and not a 'when'.

I hope it's clear from the above that in no way is suicide condoned in the Bible. It leaves a sad legacy in terms of a representation of Christ in someone's life, but nor is it condemned as a damnable offence.

Amen to all that, thank you.

Quote:
Quote:
1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?

Say, for example, a born again believer causes a motor vehicle crash by driving too fast and then dies in the crash along with 5 others in a pile up. That believer doesn't get a chance to repent do they?

and it's not suicide. It's sin and it's dealt with at the Cross! (N.B. This is not a licence to sin. Read Romans)

I think the problem here is that the thought of a Christian committing suicide is so difficult for our natural minds to accept. We tend to want to believe that God would never let it happen. In many cases He steps in to prevent it I'm sure, but He didn't make us robots. We still have free will.

Moreover, there is no Scripture to say it is impossible for a Christian to commit suicide.


Amen again! Thank you for this clear analysis of the issue.

To just add a little:

Quote:
1. Repentance is required of sin before one can enter heaven, is it not? So how one repent of suicide?

Surely when a person dies - saint or sinner - they are at once in the presence of God? That is presumably their last possible opportunity for repentance - which will decide their ultimate fate. If such a person repents, even if they have resisted and rebelled up until then, surely the Lord will forgive and wash away their sins, (including suicide if that was the cause of death)?

My father had been a backslider for many years - if indeed he had ever been truly born again. Two years before he died the Lord spoke to me about him, from Isaiah 57:17-18. Of course this passage refers to Israel in the first instance; but it came powerfully, as when the Lord speaks, and in a passage that I would never have thought of connecting with an individual:

[i][color=000099]17 ¶ For the iniquity of his covetousness was I wroth, and smote him: I hid me, and was wroth, and he went on frowardly in the way of his heart.
18 [u]I have seen his ways, and will heal him[/u]: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him [u]and to his mourners[/u]...
[/color][/i]

And when he died, without any sign that he had repented, (he was unconscious) the words ringing in my mind were "[u]I have made him every whit whole[/u]". It was probably the first time I ever had to believe something for the sole reason that God said so, for there was no emotion, no [u]feeling[/u] of reassurance, simply the words in my mind, that I had to make a conscious decision to accept in faith.

What was going on between him and the Lord in those last moments? I have no idea - he was far beyond the possibility of human communication. What goes on between a suicide and the Lord in his or her last moments? Again I have no idea. But [i]dare[/i] we say that there can be no repentance, no salvation, even at that late stage, even if death is what we call instantaneous?

Unless God gives us a definite word or sign we can't be certain one way or the other, but to [b][u]assume[/b][/u] they are lost because they committed suicide is just as wrong as assuming they are lost if they, like my father, showed no definite sign of repentance (of what we perceive as lesser sins) before a natural death occurred.

And in case anyone is thinking that I had persuaded myself of my father's salvation because of the emotional ties, there was one other occasion (only one - in over 20 years of care work, and a number of deaths) when the Lord spoke to me in this way about someone.

I have written elsewhere of a particularly unpleasant old man who caused us a lot of trouble in trying to care for him. It also drove me to pray a lot - for my reaction to his cursing and nastiness wasn't always a Christian one!

I wasn't present when he died, but again the Lord gave me scripture (somewhat out of context!) as assurance that he had repented at the end. It was from Revelation 22:3

[i][color=000099] And there shall be [u]no more curse[/u]: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it;[/color][/i]

I believe the Lord washed him clean of the cursing and hatred that had dominated his life for so long, and that he repented, was forgiven, and willingly bowed before the Lord, ("the throne of God shall be in [him]").

Paul said: "I believe God, even as was told me..."

So do I.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/8/28 15:45









 Re: Could a born again Christian Commit Suicide?

Magnus, This thread title has drawn me in.
Initially signed on to leave comment under the photo of Corrie Ten Boom.
Haven't read all the replies here, but feel that whenever this question is raised - that thoughts of who may be reading these type threads does not enter the mind of some who respond.
If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God for their thoughtless replies ?
If just one person commits suicide because of something that we have written or said somewhere, we will be held accountable.
Whether a relative has done such a thing or someone close to us, we must take due caution here with this issue and not allow the personal to enter in.
We must take our Pro-Life stance out to it's God given limits - from His Perspective and that can only be "come to", by much time in His Word and Prayer.
Jesus is Creator God and our words (or written opinions) do matter in every Spiritual matter, as we do not know who we may be influencing. All the more so when the thought of ending life and any further chances of repentence is being tossed about.
When it comes to the Life of His Creation, our "opinions" may bring judgment upon not only ourselves.

 2007/8/28 17:06









 Re: Could a born again Christian Commit Suicide?

A.W. Tozer said in one of his sermons (available on SI) that just like someone's organs or limbs can fail, a man's mind can get sick or malfunction.

In another sermon, he spoke of men that felt so horribly alienated in the world, and so longed to be with the Lord, that the Lord just let them die.

I feel there are far too many variables and possibilities in life, experience, and biological makeup to judge any man or woman who couldn't cope and decided to "stop it".

We've been commanded to love and extend grace and mercy to one another... and to leave judgement up to the Lord.

 2007/8/28 17:31









 Re:

Quote:

HE_Reigns wrote:
Haven't read all the replies here, but feel that whenever this question is raised - that thoughts of who may be reading these type threads does not enter the mind of some who respond.
If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God for their thoughtless replies ?
If just one person commits suicide because of something that we have written or said somewhere, we will be held accountable.

My friend, I think you should go back and read the whole thread carefully before pronouncing judgement. And to consider what is really being said before accusing anyone of giving "thoughtless" replies.

No-one is saying that it’s OK to commit suicide. No-one is denying that someone who does so is in great danger of hell, (as one sister "heard" her friend's anguish there). Suicide, like any other sin, can [u]only[/u] be forgiven if the person repents.

Has it occurred to you that suicide isn't always an instant thing? Death from paracetamol poisoning for example can come several [i]weeks[/i] after the original overdose. I know of one who did repent in those circumstances, but it was too late to save her life. Are you saying that person was still condemned to hell?

Do you really think that a person in utter despair (young or otherwise) could believe from what has been said that it’s OK to commit suicide and it doesn’t matter because they can be forgiven afterwards? Do you know anyone who was actually influenced to commit suicide through this kind of argument? I admit that possibility hadn't occurred to me. But might not your condemnation be just as damaging? For example, to someone who failed to commit suicide? The thought that they can never be forgiven might drive them to finish the job because there's no hope anyway.

Actually your comments have helped me focus more clearly on a key question: [i][u]How long does it take to repent?[/u][/i]

If you want Scripture, think of Luke 22:61f
“And the Lord turned, and looked upon
Peter. And Peter remembered… 62 And Peter went out, and wept bitterly.”
How long did that look need to be? Just a glance from Jesus can bring about instant repentance.

Quote:
Whether a relative has done such a thing or someone close to us, we must take due caution here with this issue and not allow the personal to enter in.

I can’t speak for others, but (even in the case of my father), the personal doesn’t really enter into it. I simply used experiences as illustrations.

Quote:
We must take our Pro-Life stance out to it's God given limits - from His Perspective and that can only be "come to", by much time in His Word and Prayer.

Yes. Are you [u]absolutely[/u] sure you have His perspective? The “God-given limits – especially of His Grace - are beyond human understanding.(Romans 11:33f – the context is the mercy of God)

33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

The Bible does clearly state that the unrepentant will go to hell. But it also clearly states that the Lord wishes to have mercy, and will have mercy to all who come to Him. To condemn one class of sinner above all others is to suffer from “elder brother” or “James and John” syndrome. (What did Jesus say to James and John when they wanted to condemn, and bring fire down from heaven on those who rejected Him?)

Quote:
Jesus is Creator God and our words (or written opinions) do matter in every Spiritual matter, as we do not know who we may be influencing. …

That is why your blanket condemnation - as if suicide is the unforgivable sin - is extremely worrying.

Quote:
When it comes to the Life of His Creation, our "opinions" may bring judgment upon not only ourselves.

So we need to be very careful who we consign to hell – even in theory.

In most cases the answer has to be, in Ezekiel’s words, “Lord, thou knowest”.

In Him

Jeannette


 2007/8/28 20:22









 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


HE_Reigns wrote:Magnus, This thread title has drawn me in.
Initially signed on to leave comment under the photo of Corrie Ten Boom.
Haven't read all the replies here, but feel that whenever this question is raised - that thoughts of who may be reading these type threads does not enter the mind of some who respond.
If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God for their thoughtless replies ?
If just one person commits suicide because of something that we have written or said somewhere, we will be held accountable.
Whether a relative has done such a thing or someone close to us, we must take due caution here with this issue and not allow the personal to enter in.
We must take our Pro-Life stance out to it's God given limits - from His Perspective and that can only be "come to", by much time in His Word and Prayer.
Jesus is Creator God and our words (or written opinions) do matter in every Spiritual matter, as we do not know who we may be influencing. All the more so when the thought of ending life and any further chances of repentance is being tossed about.
When it comes to the Life of His Creation, our "opinions" may bring judgment upon not only ourselves.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

LittleGift wrote:
My friend, I think you should go back and read the whole thread carefully before pronouncing judgement. And to consider what is really being said before accusing anyone of giving "thoughtless" replies.



Hello Jeannette, the word "thoughtless" goes hand in hand with the unbroken sentence from which you have extracted it. Please read the sentence as a whole because that was the whole purpose of my post. I will repeat it here: [b][u]" If a young Christian has just had their heart broken and they should read from just enough, that suicide is pardonable - would you not think that those who have presented it as such, will be accountable before God[/u] for their thoughtless replies ?[/b]
Can any of us "guarantee" that someone who "murders themselves" will be pardoned ? That is what makes some replies "thoughtless" - because it is not considering just who may be deliberating what and reading what into what is posted on this very sensitive and important topic.
If we are Not Certain that a person will be forgiven after murdering themselves - then we all should teach that "[b][u]murdering oneself is playing Russian Roulette with their Salvation[/u][/b]".
Our First thought should, again, be for those who are weak among us and may only need the slightest persuasion from the enemy of their souls and one human voice to pull the plug on their own lives.
If [b]any[/b] excuse is given whatsoever for this murder, the devil can use that one simple excuse.
Even those quotes by brother Ravenhill. As much as I respect that man, to say that the human mind can get sick, may be just the excuse or ticket a weak soul could use - rather than have the fear that they just may wind up in hell in this game of chance.
Rather than make countless excuses of "mental illness", which in and of itself is a controversial subject and being used by the world to destroy minds further and excuse assisted suicide etc., and that whole slippery slope that we are witnessing in this new generation. Psychology is in the Church and it will kill many.
The only 'safe' thing to tell anyone about suicide is that there is No guarantee that they will be saved and again, it is definitely a playing of Russian Roulette with their eternal souls. That is all I would ever say on this topic, lest we find ourselves quoting the world which is governed by the spirit of death - Not Spiritual Life in Him.
In the rest of your post, you start with "no one is saying that it is alright", but then go on as before, with how it possibly could turn out alright after all.
That is all a weak teen-ager or lonely elderly person or a person in any type of pain would need to hear and rather than seek help, they'll take that chance because a mature Christian mentioned this or that.
This subject is a very hot topic in the world right now and the suicide rate is phenomenal, even in Christian circles, because life is obviously getting more difficult for everyone and as most agree, will continue to get much more difficult. We may all pass through "mental anguish" in the days ahead - so we would do better to stress the 'dangers' of suicide rather than give an inch to speculative - toss a coin - chances of forgiveness once they're dead. By trying to accommodate those who have killed themselves in the past, we are giving license, whether you see that in your posts or not. If someone had a "failed attempt" - there [i]is[/i] time to repent and be immediately forgiven - but those who [i]do[/i] succeed have no guarantees at all.
Satan can say to a young person, "Cut your wrists and repent while you bleed to death - maybe even write out a repentant death letter. I'm sure God will forgive you then." He [i]does[/i] speak like that.
Just your strong defense here is an indication to some, of giving people who are tempted an "out".
If you don't know if they will make it to Heaven or not, one should do all within their verbal power to dissuade and not excuse or soften this act of murder in anyway whatsoever.
Why you would be offended at my words above, I'm not quite sure. I don't follow your reasoning at all.
Thou shall not kill is a commandment that should be taught, because it is the only sin of the 10 that may not give the person time to repent and their repentance may not be truly sincere, but a lie bought or implanted by the enemy into their minds, as mentioned per suggestion above. We should never give so much as a thread of excuse or hopes of a happy ending with murder. Those who have done so already, we cannot judge, but in order to prevent any excuse whatsoever from anyone from using our words for that chance of making it out safely, is what we truly need to consider and avoid. I've read enough of this thread with the eyes of one who would love to depart this world and found many sentences that would give a weak person an excuse to go ahead and do it. The excuses are peppered in enough posts to be troubling and extra-Biblical. More psychology than Bible.
I've consigned no one to hell. If you read either of these posts I've done here, you will see that it is not me that is doing such.

Quote:
LittleGift wrote:
That is why your blanket condemnation - as if suicide is the unforgivable sin - is extremely worrying.



There's just one out for someone out there.

 2007/8/28 22:08
davym
Member



Joined: 2007/5/22
Posts: 319


 Re:

He_Reigns

Your point is a good one and I accept it.

The final thing I'd like to say on this is that, for every believer, a thorough understanding of the book of Romans is essential for our spiritual growth.


God Bless


_________________
David

 2007/8/29 4:09Profile





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