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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What are the Biblical views on providing family protection against evil people?

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theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I'm undetermined on this issue. On the one hand I notice that Paul's friends were never fighting to defend him when he was being mobbed. He often fled at the urging of his friends. They did not barricade the apostle and set up defense, but rather basketed him and sent him away with his life.

When it is possible to avoid injuries to any party through flight, flight seems best. Jesus often evaded through a crowd.

However, such is sometimes not the case, as when a thief or gang decides to steal, kill, and destroy.

I know that, for the sake of my companions, I am empowered by the "higher powers... ordained of God" to execute restraint up to the point of death against assailants. If what you some of you write (such as Jim and Brad) is true, then you must believe that it is wrong for Christians to ever be involved in law enforcement and military service, because when it comes "time to kill" they would not be allowed to be a "terror to evil works". In this sense every civilian is empowered by the state to "bear not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil," so far as that civil servant acts within the law. In fact, in many cases a man would be guilty of a crime if he did not assist a person in need when it was in his power to do so.

Some thoughts.

 2007/8/21 13:18Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Krispy, although I may not have satisfactorily answered your claim that I was dodging the issue, I think you've similarly been dodging the issue of showing the love of Christ to your/our enemies. Does the stance that you take reveal the love of Christ?



Perhaps it's my military training... I don't know, but I could protect my family in the manner in which we are speaking of... and do it completely void of malice toward the one committed the crime. Therein, I believe, is the difference. You view it as vengeance, I do not.

To me, vengeance happens after the crime, not during it. This is when we choose to go and forgive instead of seeking vengeance.


Krispy

 2007/8/21 13:30
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

I don't view it as vengeance at all. I view it as a retaliation, a response, a reaction. But does it show the love of Christ or are we the same as the world?

We can respond in a Christ-like manner or in a worldly way... with intentions of malice or not. You know as well as I that we can have all the best intentions to do something good and in the end it could turn out to be against God. Uzza just wanted to keep the Ark from falling and we know what happened to him.

theopenlife said:

Quote:
If what you some of you write (such as Jim and Brad) is true, then you must believe that it is wrong for Christians to ever be involved in law enforcement and military service, because when it comes "time to kill" they would not be allowed to be a "terror to evil works".



I believe Christians can be involved, just not in the killing.

Quote:
In this sense every civilian is empowered by the state to "bear not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil," so far as that civil servant acts within the law.



That's granting a wide license, but what is the law? You shall not kill.

Quote:
In fact, in many cases a man would be guilty of a crime if he did not assist a person in need when it was in his power to do so.


Yes, we have power to kill but not license. And whose law are we ruled by Man's or God's.
For instance, man's law says that you can kill a baby up to 5 months. God's law says otherwise.


_________________
Brad Wright

 2007/8/21 13:49Profile









 Re:

That's granting a wide license, but what is the law? You shall not kill.



moe_mac wrote:
Is it kill or murder?
And the question was would you call the police department?

 2007/8/21 13:52









 Re:

Quote:
I believe Christians can be involved, just not in the killing.



Thats unrealistic. So the Christian cop is supposed to call in an unsaved cop to do the killing for him? C'mon... now we're headed straight into silliness.

While he's waiting for the unsaved cop to get there, the criminal shoots 3 innocent people.

Dont run for sheriff in my county, ok?!

Krispy

 2007/8/21 14:06
K_DAY
Member



Joined: 2006/7/28
Posts: 144
Ann Arbor, MI

 Re:

Quote:


Thats unrealistic. So the Christian cop is supposed to call in an unsaved cop to do the killing for him? C'mon... now we're headed straight into silliness.

Krispy



You don't really think thats what he is suggesting, do you? Of course a cop calling someone else to do his dirty work is not being an advocate for peace! His hands would be just as dirty.

But perhaps a practicer of non-resistance in that line of work would be unrealistic. It certainly would not be easy (and probably not allowed)! The point he was making though, was that IF one was a cop, his actions would still have to reflect non-violence.

I would suggest we stay away from the emotional appeals when discussing these issues, such as what about the innocent people, or what about WWII, and instead focus on what does the Bible say, and where is God in all of this.

Is God's power to protect limited by our choice not to pull a trigger? I am pretty sure God is far more capable to protect us, our families, and this world than our automatic weapons and handguns.

This is of course, easier said than done. I don't care though. I just want to know what the Bible says about this (as do we all) and be personally transformed with enough strength and faith to live that way. I can't personally say I am there yet.

I hope we can continue without treating each others viewpoints as silliness, or over intellectualizing the issue. Nonresistance is very importance to many people. One of those people, from what I understand, was Leonard Ravenhill.

-K_DAY

 2007/8/21 14:31Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You don't really think thats what he is suggesting, do you? Of course a cop calling someone else to do his dirty work is not being an advocate for peace! His hands would be just as dirty.



Thats what he said... if he needs to clarify it, then let him. I quoted him in context.

Quote:
I would suggest we stay away from the emotional appeals when discussing these issues, such as what about the innocent people, or what about WWII, and instead focus on what does the Bible say, and where is God in all of this.



No, I disagree... those examples have everything to do with what we're talking about here.

Quote:
I hope we can continue without treating each others viewpoints as silliness, or over intellectualizing the issue. Nonresistance is very importance to many people. One of those people, from what I understand, was Leonard Ravenhill.



No disrespect to Mr. Ravenhill, but he wasnt diety. It is possible he was wrong about a few things... this being one of them. Just because he, or Wilkerson, or even Keith Green believed something doesnt mean we should automatically drop everything and follow them.

And who said I wasnt "non-violence"? Too many presumptions being made.

Krispy

 2007/8/21 14:46









 Re:

Kday wrote:
I would suggest we stay away from the emotional appeals when discussing these issues, such as what about the innocent people, or what about WWII, and instead focus on what does the Bible say, and where is God in all of this.


Moe_mac wrote:
Exactly one of the points this thread and questions reveals. If we consider God's Word was is our instruction book for our arrival in heaven alone and only? Why study it and search the scriptures? Does the Bible give instuctions for earthly living or not? There is absolutely no subject about the present life that God's Word is not applicable to in instructions. Could it be that many people could not remain comfortable in their present theology thinking, if certain issues are opening discussed in how the scriptures apply, and reveal exactly what is revealed in HIS WORD that applies to daily living in all areas of our life? The Old Testament has pictures drawn in words. They draw us a picture of just how Holy God is and what a glorious saviour we have in Jesus Christ.

 2007/8/21 15:05
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

K-Day is right. I'm not at all suggesting that a saved cop should call an unsaved to kill a guy. As a man put in that position by God, I think that he can immobilize the criminal. No need to kill. Period. There are many other ways to take someone down without fatally wounding them. As a trained Marine, I suspect you know this Krispy.

Quote:
No disrespect to Mr. Ravenhill, but he wasnt diety. It is possible he was wrong about a few things... this bring one of them.



You're 100% sure that you are correct? Is it possible that you're wrong?

I'll admit that I may be, and I'll concede if anyone can clearly show in Scripture how killing someone is showing the love of Christ in the situation that is being discussed here.

You have yet to answer that, Krispy. Show me how shooting/killing someone shows the love of Christ.

And yes, Moe-mac, I would call the police. But I did not say that I would only stand by and pray for my family. Let's be clear on that.



_________________
Brad Wright

 2007/8/21 15:13Profile









 Re:

Quote:
You have yet to answer that, Krispy. Show me how shooting/killing someone shows the love of Christ.



How does shaking the dust of your sandels and walking away from someone who refuses Christ show love? How does not "casting your pearls before swine" show love? How did Jesus' rebuke of the religious leaders show love?

Where are we commanded to always "show love" to unrepentant sinners? We are to love "one another", and in that context it is speaking to believers about believers.

Paul condemned those who teach false doctrines, and commanded us to mark them and avoid them. How does that show love?

Scripture says "as much as possible" live in peace with others. Sometimes it isnt possible, and even scripture recognizes this.

Shooting someone who is posing a dangerous physical threat to my family does not mean I hate that person, or am not loving my enemy. After I neutralize the threat I would love nothing more than to lead that person to Christ... and I have read of instances where that has actually happened.

Quote:
You're 100% sure that you are correct?



I dont say this very often, but on this topic, yep... I'm 100% sure. Thats not to be misundertood as arrogance, it is confidence.

Krispy

 2007/8/21 15:23





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