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Discussion Forum : General Topics : What are the Biblical views on providing family protection against evil people?

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 Re:

Brad... you have conveniently dodged the real question of this thread, which really is not about "self" defense. It is about protecting your loved ones... your wife... your precious children.

You say you cant see Jesus killing or doing injure to another... but I say there is only ONE God. I believe in the Trinity. I believe Jesus existed before the beginning of time. I believe Jesus is God. I know you do to. Therefore, I [b]can[/b] see Jesus issuing the Mosaic Law, and I [b]can[/b] see Jesus telling the Israelites to kill every living creature in the land they were to posess... and on and on. Why? Because these were directives from God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah.

The Trinity didnt start when Jesus was born of Mary. Read John 1:1. Are we to believe that pacifist Jesus went into another room when God destroyed nations, and order the death of those who violated certain aspects of His law?

I dont think so.

What about the Book of The Revelation? There is a lot of death and destruction going on... who is responsible for that? Are the death angels working on their own? Or do they have directives from the Throne? Is Jesus hiding away with His head under a pillow so He doesnt see all this... or is He actually in charge?

God is not a hippie, regardless of how Hollywood has tainted everyone's view of Jesus. We need to base our ideas of who Christ was on scripture, and not movies.

It's easy to say "we should turn the other cheek and do nothing to protect the ones God has entrusted to us" when it will probably never come down to it. Peter told Jesus he would die before he would let anything happen to Him. But when it came down to it... where was Peter? Cussing and lying and denying Him.

Krispy

 2007/8/21 11:39









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Quote:
Perhaps you guys are living in the wrong covenant... either way, I dont want to quarell... but we no longer are members of a physical kingdom, under a physical covenant, with a physical enemy and physical rewards.



So you would do nothing while someone murders your family, Jim? Is that what I am to believe?

Krispy

 2007/8/21 11:43
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Quote:
you have conveniently dodged the real question of this thread, which really is not about "self" defense.



I don't think I dodged it at all. I said that I'm all for protecting our families or others. Just not to the point of killing. My personal opinion, I'd rather trust God than a knife, sidearm, shotgun, or machine gun.

Let me ask you, what happens if someone breaks down your door and wants to kill your family (God forbid) because of persecution and not you? Do you still say, "prepare to meet God" and blow a hole through a guy's chest? Does that reveal the love of Christ? When Christ said to love our enemies, I think that anyone who is an enemy of my wife, wanting to kill her, would also be an enemy of mine. No?

If it's the middle of the night and someone violently tears into a house, are you going to shoot and ask questions later to see if it's persecution or not? I just think it's a dangerous line to walk trusting our own judgment.

Quote:
You say you cant see Jesus killing or doing injure to another... but I say there is only ONE God. I believe in the Trinity. I believe Jesus existed before the beginning of time. I believe Jesus is God. I know you do to. Therefore, I can see Jesus issuing the Mosaic Law, and I can see Jesus telling the Israelites to kill every living creature in the land they were to posess... and on and on. Why? Because these were directives from God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit destroyed Sodom and Gamorrah.



Absolutely! I agree 100%. When I say Jesus, I mean the Godhead. But I also believe, as I said previously, that He, the Eternal Godhead, has reserved things for a day of judgment. It is there that He will surely be revealed in all His Holy fury, and His garments being soaked with blood in judgment.


_________________
Brad Wright

 2007/8/21 12:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So you would do nothing while someone murders your family, Jim? Is that what I am to believe?



Excellent question, poorly worded, slightly framed, and with a hint of straw man though...

2 Thessalonians 1:5 NIV
All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

Krispy- It is not a question of if I would do anything to protect my wife and children who are precious first and foremost to God and secondly to me, it is a question if I would deny Jesus as my Lord by murdering someone against His teachings to keep them from harming my family.

I entrust all things to God. Christ left us an example to follow in this. I recently read in "Jesus Freaks" (accounts of persecution and martyrdom from voice of the martyrs) of a man in China (I believe) who was brutally tortured because he would not renounce Christ. After failed attempts by the communists to get him to deny his master they brought in his 10 year old boy and told them that they would kill the boy if the dad did not renounce Christ. The dad was about to buckle when the boy said to him dad, I have no wish to live knowing that my father denied the one who died for him. The boy was killed. Modern American Christianity, which is under the strong delusion that God has accursed it with, would tell you this is not right and look down on the man for doing such a thing.

Perhaps this is the root of why we don’t have revival in America, because even those interested in it would deny their master in deed if not word for something they hold more precious to them, their life or their family...

I am also reminded of Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand who were called in with all of the other ministers to the new communist government in Romania. Each minister was forced to pledge his allegiance to the government and in the process all but deny Jesus. Sabina said to her husband, you must do something about this open shaming of Christ to which Richard replied you will be left a widow and have no husband if I do. Sabinas reply...

I HAVE NO WISH TO BE MARRIED TO A COWARD ANYHOW.

What has been written in this thread only sounds good to carnal American Christians (even among the revival crowd) and is not the reality of the true workings of God even presently in persecuted countries.

I believe it necessary to twist the clear teachings of scripture or we would have to admit that we love our lives and our families more then the the one we call master.

I can assure you that my wife has no desire to be married to a coward or a religious hypocrite either. I pray that I would have enough reality of the eternal kingdom of God in my life to do as the men in the following account and not deny my master in word or in action. This is a very tough question and it reveals a lot about how Americanized we are.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/8/21 12:27









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Quote:
Let me ask you, what happens if someone breaks down your door and wants to kill your family (God forbid) because of persecution and not you? Do you still say, "prepare to meet God" and blow a hole through a guy's chest? Does that reveal the love of Christ? When Christ said to love our enemies, I think that anyone who is an enemy of my wife, wanting to kill her, would also be an enemy of mine. No?



This is a completely different situation than the one we are discussing... and under those circumstances I do believe we are to turn the other cheek.

Quote:
If it's the middle of the night and someone violently tears into a house, are you going to shoot and ask questions later to see if it's persecution or not? I just think it's a dangerous line to walk trusting our own judgment.



First off, I would never shoot first and ask questions later. I've been trained to assess the situation first. Suppose it's someone breaking in my house to get away from an assailent... or it isnt someone breaking into my house, but instead it's my brother coming in because he is concerned about us and is checking things out.

Secondly... if someone comes in my house and I have determind they have a gun... yes. They will be missing their knee cap in a matter of seconds. Then, if they wish to persecute me for my faith, I will not resist.

Krispy

 2007/8/21 12:29









 Re:

...That same year, Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand attended the Congress of Cults organized by the Romanian Communist government. Many religious leaders came forward to praise Communism and to swear loyalty to the new regime. Sabina said, “Richard, stand up and wash away this shame from the face of Christ.” Richard warned, “If I do so, you’ll lose your husband.” She replied, “I don’t wish to have a coward as a husband.” Thus Richard declared to the 4,000 delegates, whose speeches were broadcast to the whole nation, that their duty is to glorify God and Christ alone.

 2007/8/21 12:32









 Re:

Quote:
...That same year, Richard and Sabina Wurmbrand attended the Congress of Cults organized by the Romanian Communist government. Many religious leaders came forward to praise Communism and to swear loyalty to the new regime. Sabina said, “Richard, stand up and wash away this shame from the face of Christ.” Richard warned, “If I do so, you’ll lose your husband.” She replied, “I don’t wish to have a coward as a husband.” Thus Richard declared to the 4,000 delegates, whose speeches were broadcast to the whole nation, that their duty is to glorify God and Christ alone.



And I dont have any problem with this, and I would I and my wife would do the same. However, in the context of this thread... this is not what we are talking about, and therefore is not relevent.

The original intent of this thread was to discuss protecting our loved ones from criminals and evil doers, this was not about turning the cheek in the face of persecution based on our faith.

I'm clueless as to why people dont understand that. It's quite simple, but as usual, folks want to take something simple and make it more complex than it needs to be. I suppose we all want to show off our intellect or something.

Krispy

 2007/8/21 12:57
BradW
Member



Joined: 2006/5/30
Posts: 94
Edmonton, AB, Canada

 Re:

Quote:


Let me ask you, what happens if someone breaks down your door and wants to kill your family (God forbid) because of persecution and not you? Do you still say, "prepare to meet God" and blow a hole through a guy's chest? Does that reveal the love of Christ? When Christ said to love our enemies, I think that anyone who is an enemy of my wife, wanting to kill her, would also be an enemy of mine. No?


This is a completely different situation than the one we are discussing... and under those circumstances I do believe we are to turn the other cheek.



I'll admit that it's somewhat different but not completely. Someone wanting to kill your family...same issue, different circumstance. Nonetheless, I'll cease with it.

Krispy, although I may not have satisfactorily answered your claim that I was dodging the issue, I think you've similarly been dodging the issue of showing the love of Christ to your/our enemies. Does the stance that you take reveal the love of Christ?

[EDIT] and I don't just mean enemies in terms of enemies of Christ. If someone is trying to harm you or a family member, they'd be considered an enemy


_________________
Brad Wright

 2007/8/21 13:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I suppose we all want to show off our intellect or something.



dont go bee-ing envious of my smartz now kripsy. Both topics are closely related.

love in Christ brother - Jim

 2007/8/21 13:04









 Re: What are the Biblical views on providing family protection against evil people?

Quote:

moe_mac wrote:

[i][b][color=CC0000]EDIT:Thanks for all comments. A followup question to the thread please. To those who would choose to stand by and pray only to defend your family. Would you or would you not call the police department in defence of your family in a life threatening situation to them?[/color][/b][/i]




moe_mac orginal question:
I try to always remember in my prayers to humbly ask for God's protection for my loved ones and others in obviousness of much evil in the world today.

I have never yet had to face a great deal of situations in civilian live in defence of anyone. THANK YOU LORD and pray I never will be face that situation, such as with a home break-in by a burgular or some nut or demon posessed guy threatening bodily harm to one of my family members.

I have a daughter 33 years who is a police officer. That is all she has ever been since college. She barely stands 5 foot and 125 lbs and I pray for her often. If this situation were to occur, I would certainly would want to be present to help and would not hesitate to use any measure to make an effort to protect them, if it meant bodily harm or death to the offender. Of course apart from a weapon I would be almost useless in weakness due to my health. I might have one weak swing and then it would be over for me.


We know families the majority of the time we are separated from them in our jobs and tasks and travel. Really we should realize actually they are God's hands all the time, whether we be present are not. In my prayers, I always ask for HIS hand of protection over them whether it be a trip to the grocery store or a flight to another country.

Having said that: to get to the question and point. I must confess this, although I don't carry a weapon most of the time, I don't believe in anyway I could restrain myself, if I were positive someone was threatening a family member's life and safety or for that matter even a stranger's life. How many think this is a weakness in a christian to have this mindset? I have read some post that seem to indicate we as christians should not defend or harm anyone in any situation when they are a danger to others. Comments Please!!!!



 2007/8/21 13:07





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