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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Kenneth Hagin and the Laughing Revival.

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jouko
Member



Joined: 2003/10/9
Posts: 172
Ex-England colony of Australia

 Re:

http://www.christian-witness.org/archives/cetf2003/copeland.html

This page might be of interest as we debate K.Hagins doctrine as it would be compatible to K.Copelands, both from the same camp.

There is 3 more parts to this article.

jouko


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Jouko Hakola

 2004/7/6 23:00Profile
DelightedInU
Member



Joined: 2004/5/17
Posts: 102
Escondido, CA

 Health and Wealth- Selfish Ambitions

First off, I want to post scripture, because at least we all agree that scripture is truth. I don't even know that Mitch is reading this, but if you are, then here are some truths.

Let me first say that you have posted God's word, but have taken it out of context. Just like if you were taking something I said such as "I love women". You could take that and say I was a lesbian and do all kinds of damage with it. But you took it out of context and what I was really saying is "I love women of God. I enjoy their fellowship." So what I really meant was that I love God's daughters and like to fellowship with them.

On Wealth:

Matt 6:8-13
for your Father knoweth what things ye have NEED of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

This is an example of how to pray. Not a prayer to pray. This prayer is from Jesus. We should take in His words and His examples always. The only physical thing that He asks for is for bread. For food. He is asking for the things that he NEEDS, not the things he would like, or wants. God will provide for your NEEDS. God know what we NEED. Jesus didn't pray for or want all these extra things. Why do you? It's just stuff. It's gonna burn.

Matt 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal: But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Same chapter. Same context. God says, don't gain all this stuff. It isn't eternal. Press forward for the eternal treasure, which is eternity with Jesus. You don't NEED all this stuff on Earth. Why would God say to not store it up and then just give it to you? It doesn't make sense. Riches is a blessing, but not one that you should be looking forward to. He doesn't promise it anywhere in scripture. Where your treasure is, your heart is. Do you think He wants all these things in your life to distract you? He want to be your treasure. God told the rich man to sell all he had and follow Him. Can you give it all up to follow Him? Live on the streets? The more you have, the more you want, the harder it is to give up. That is the BLESSING of being poor. No baggage! Nothing to hold onto. All the more reason to press on to the upward call!

On Health:

Quote:
There is no reason whatsoever to think that Healing is only given to us for our life after this. We already know there is no pain and sickness in Heaven. So why on Earth would God provide a way for us to be healed, in a place where we need no healing?



This is something that you have taken out of context. There is no healing in Heaven. There is no need for it. We are perfect in our heavenly bodies then. He doesn't provide a way to be healed in heaven. The verse you are using this argument above with is out of context.

I'm going to post the context.

Isaiah 53:2-11
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and WITH HIS STRIPES WE ARE HEALED. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because hehad done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

This passage is prophecy for the crucifixion. This is how the Messiah would deliver everyone who believes. It is not speaking about physical healing. It is talking about spiritual healing. We are 'healed' from the disease of sin. We are saved from the second death. This is not refering to the first death. God could care less about our physical bodies. He does care, but not as much as he cares about our spirit. He 'heals' us from spiritual disease and death. This is the meaning of the passage.

Philippians 3:7-10
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the FELLOWSHIP OF HIS SUFFERING, being made conformable unto his death;

Again, Paul is talking about everything he has gained in this life. He thinks it's dung (crap). Garbage! Wealth doesn't matter. Why do you seek it? Seek HIM!

The fellowship of His suffering. We are going to suffer. We aren't all going to be healed. It doesn't matter though. They're just bodies. We are to fellowship in His suffering. Take part in it. Experience His suffering. It is a blessing. To suffer the way Christ suffered. God is glorified when we suffer. ANYONE can follow God when things are good, your health is good. Who wouldn't want to follow a God who give you wealth and health? Just like Job. But the true test, the true witness of faith is when someone praises God, even though they aren't healed. Then people a will look and say, "That's the kind of God I want to follow. Even when they are suffering, they are still praising. There must be something about their God! I want to know Him." I believe in the gift of healing. People are healed. But why doesn't God heal everyone? Cause He has a purpose for that infirmity in those peoples lives. He is using that person, and that persons circumstances to glorify Himself. How they act in those conditions, brings glory to God. God is BEST glorified, when His children suffer.


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Jennifer

 2004/7/7 14:32Profile
ZekeO
Member



Joined: 2004/7/4
Posts: 1014
Pietermaritzburg, South Africa

 Re: Health and Wealth- Selfish Ambitions

I write out of seeing the response to Mr Index's posting about Kenneth Hagin.

With any truth I believe there is a possibilty that, that one truth can become the total focus of our lives. In the last hundred or so years God has been restoring that which was lost, examples would be the baptism in the Holy Ghost(Azusa Street). Then we had the Healers and Evangelists of the mid twentieth century, then the whole teaching explosion with Mumford and the boys. Then we had the faith guys come, then we had the prophetic and lastly the return of the Apostolic office and ministry.

I believe that what happened with the whole faith movement was that they didn't move on. God didn't stop at that mountain, he is building his Church and wants his whole Church moving forward with all the truth. Paul understood that, and he didn't hesitate to proclaim the whole will of God. Acts 20:27

When we meet together as Christians and our sole focus is one particular truth and not the whole vista of who he is, we will go off line. The church becomes known more for the truths that they hold dear than for a church that reflects the full breadth of New Testament life. He shows us so that we can go extend and advance his kingdom. I believe that the essential truths of the word of faith movement are true, that you get what you say, positive confession(saying what God says) etc Mark 11:23; Prov 18:20,21.
But it is a truth in context and balanced with the whole cannon of scripture.

What I'm saying is that not one aspect of God our of his word should be our sole picture of who he is, he fills the heavens and the earth so how can one glimpse of him show us all of him.


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Zeke Oosthuis

 2004/7/7 16:43Profile
girlofGod07
Member



Joined: 2003/12/26
Posts: 3


 Re: Health and Wealth- Selfish Ambitions

Oh my DelightedInU...Now you're at the point of saying the God that can do the impossible can no longer do that. Because obviously now He can't heal anyone or make anyone wealthy...let's see.
Pslam 103-"Bless the Lord, O my soul, And forget not all His benefits: Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases, Who redeems your life from destruction."
Looks to me like healing our diseases and forgiving us is different (in which case you would call it "spiritual healing"...hmm).
As far as "sharing in His suffering"...that's persecution. Not sickness and disease. Sickness and disease is apart of the death category. You can't deny that. Who brings death...satan. Who brings life and life more abundantly..Jesus! =) If we are to be like Christ and it is Christ that lives in us (Gal. 2:20) then how in the world are we supposed to live with sickness and disease? Jesus' nature is health and life. Satan's is sickness, disease and death.
Sickness comes to destroy. Reminds me of John 10:10-"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy, I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it mroe abundantly."
James 1:17-"Every good gift and perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow or turning." Jesus came to give us abundant life! And all good and perfect gifts come from God the Father. Is cancer a good gift? Is putting up with lung and kidney problems living abundantly? These things are a result of an imperfect world full of results of the fall of man. But today I have good news. Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil and He, Jesus, accomplished what He set out to do. Satan has been defeated (1 John 3:8-"For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.") and we have been given the ability to be set free! =)
If the Truth is to set us free...we must KNOW it. For GOD'S PEOPLE are destroyed because of lack of knowledge. How I want people to know there is more to God and more to the life He wants us to live than they are living now!
And I wont even get into the wealth thing now cause time is short but all I can say for now is God wants us to enjoy life. Now..putting things and stuff above God is a big no-no. And people do fall into that, we just must be careful that we use God's blessings on us to be a blessing to others, for that is why He blesses us! Who would want to be a Christian if God makes us be poor and sick?? Life and life more abundantly is Christ's motto!
And just another add in, He wants us healthy! He does care about our physical bodies. Because we can't be doing all He needs us doing (ministring, spreading His Word effectively) if we are sick and laying on our beds!
It's in the Word...check it out with an open heart. =) God bless!

 2004/7/12 23:12Profile
jeremyhulsey
Member



Joined: 2003/4/18
Posts: 777


 Re:

OK, We have beat this topic to death. So if it's ok with everyone I'm going to lock it. If you still want to speak on this subject please use private messages and email 8-) . Thanks.

In Christ,
Jeremy Hulsey


_________________
Jeremy Hulsey

 2004/7/12 23:25Profile





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