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 (For the Calvinist and the Arminian) Everyone On These Forums Should Give This A Listen.


I recently read this post in another forum over at OpenAirOutreach, and I thought it should be bumped over here.


Here is an approximately 45 minute webcast that James White did on 7/19/07 concerning Steve Gregg's (and virtually all, according to my knowledge, whose view of the chapter is Arminian-ish) view of Romans 9.

The mp3 is available here:

http://aomin.org/index.php?itemid=2126

He begins by going through Romans 8 and then expounds on chapter 9. He will address Gregg's "nations" argument on a later show. I will post a link to that mp3 at that time.

Everyone on these forums should give this a listen. If you are a Calvinist, you will be edified. If you are not a Calvinist, then you will be challenged.

The mp3 is free. White is able to defend himself just fine. I am not going to debate about this mp3 - it is more than sufficient in and of itself.


Link To the original post

Edit Addition:

The second part of this Radio Free Geneva has been posted. It is here:

http://aomin.org/index.php?itemid=2135

there is a part 3 in which greater detail was gone into concerning the arguments Steve Gregg presented, especially concerning the way he tried to handle the latter part of Romans 9.

http://aomin.org/index.php?itemid=2139


There was a statement on the other forum that should be added here:

Those of you who want to try to refute what James White says here and what he said previously, please listen to the entire argument that you are refuting and explain, in detail, how it must be false, and how the text must support your position (do not simply say "well, we could understand it this way or that way", which does nothing but confuse what the text actually means).

In total, all of the audio that has been posted here is a total of approximately 3-3.5 hours long. It would take some time to listen to, and I had to listen to parts of the latter ones several times because I had never heard of the sort of argument that Gregg tries to make about the "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God" section of Romans 9.

Those of you who are busy propagating various forms of Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and Arminianism need to listen to these audios, as well as do the Calvinists here. These are the best attempts I have heard at harmonizing Romans 9 with synergism from any synergist, and therein are also some of the best arguments I have heard to the contrary. It is well worth the time of anyone who listens to it - if you disagree with White's position, then you will just be that much better off, because you'll be able to try to refute it and strengthen your faith in the doctrine of synergism, right? ;)

Seriously though, there has been a lot of side-stepping and quickly passing over of this chapter here. Those of you who are in the synergist camp need to see if your arguments can actually stand up to this. Interact with it, and refute it if you can. You need not post it here. I will keep bumping this regardless, though.


God bless you!
-Abraham

Edit: retitled for clarification

 2007/8/20 3:50









 Re: Radio Free Geneva: James White on Romans 9



Thanks for this.

Don't forget the next one, please...

 2007/8/23 16:04









 Re:

I put part 2 and 3 up in the thread intros Edit Addition.

-Abraham

 2007/8/23 21:20
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

These programs are some of the best exegesis of Romans 9, and in order to maintain the position that believes that this speaks of nations, is to ignore both context and language within.

Another wonderful treatment of Romans 9 is found in "The Justification of God" by John Piper. It is not light reading per se, but is an exegetical look at what is being said, and what is not being said in Romans 9.

Praise God for His wondrous sovereignty, and marvelous providence!!!


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/24 0:07Profile









 Re:

Maybe we all should camp in this chapter and discuss it (in gentleness) verse by verse together. God bless you!
-Abraham

 2007/9/7 22:16
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re: (For the Calvinist and the Arminian) Everyone On These Forums Should Give This A

Romans 9 starts with this:

[i]But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, “In Isaac your seed shall be called.”[/i]

and ends with this:

[i]What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law.[/i]

and everything in between is explaining how these things are.


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/9/7 22:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:
and everything in between is explaining how these things are.



(Let us refer to this verse in light of the flow and context of the chapter as a whole)

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

1. Who is the Thou and why does he say this?
2. What does it mean by "His will"?
3. Who has resisted His will?

The Geneva Bible (with notes) reads it as this:

Rom 9:19 - (16) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

(16) Another objection, but only for the reprobate, rising upon the former answer. If God appoints to everlasting destruction, such as he wishes, and if that which he has decreed cannot be hindered nor withstood, how does he justly condemn those who perish by his will?

Some Treasury Scripture passage in light of "His will" of which I ask you, "...who hath resisted His will?"

1. God decrees evil for good.
Gen 50:20 But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive.

(1.)The word for meant in the Hebrew can also be defined as: to fabricate, devise, or purpose. (See Strongs)

a. God fabricated it unto good.
b. God devised it unto good.
c. God purposed it unto good.


H2803
חשׁב
châshab
khaw-shab'
A primitive root; properly to plait or interpenetrate, that is, (literally) to weave or (generally) to fabricate; figuratively to plot or contrive (usually in a malicious sense); hence (from the mental effort) to think, regard, value, compute: - (make) account (of), conceive, consider, count, cunning (man, work, workman), devise, esteem, find out, forecast, hold, imagine, impute, invent, be like, mean, purpose, reckon (-ing be made), regard, think.

2. God counseled and determined for Jesus to be crucified by men.
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

3. God rules over all and none is able to withstand Him.
2Ch 20:6 And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?

4. What God's soul desires, even that He doeth.
Job 23:13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Job 23:14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

(1.)Does God desire the salvation of all men? If He does, then why doesn't He do it? Who can turn Him from what He desires and doeth?

(2.)Who shall hinder Him from performing the thing that is appointed for you?

5. Men do whatsoever God's hand and His counsel determined before to be done.
Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Act 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

6. The scriptures cannot be broken. God determined for Judas to betray Jesus.
Mat 26:54 But how then shall the Scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?
Luk 22:22 And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!

7. Those who stumble at the word, being disobedient were appointed to this.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

(1.)Who performed the thing that was appointed for them? Men or God?
Job 23:14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.

8. God says, "I am God, and there is none like me." God has declared the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done. His counsel shall stand and He will do all His pleasure.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 46:11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

(1.) If it is God's pleasure that all men should be saved, why does He not perform it and appoint it for all? Shall he not do all His pleasure?

(2.) If it is God's desire for all men (universally throughout all eternity) to be saved, why does He not purpose it and do it?

9. The many devices in a man's heart shall not destroy the counsel of the LORD.
Pro 19:21 There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.

(1.) Shall the will of man change the counsel of the Lord. Shall the will of man change what God has appointed and determined before. (examples: Judas' betrayal and Peter's denial.)

10. God's ways are past finding out and His judgments are unsearchable.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor?
Rom 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory forever. Amen.

All things are:
(1.) For Him
(2.) Through Him
(3.) To Him


Now back to our text, Let us see How Paul answers the question, "Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

(1.) Can God's will of forming us and making us be resisted?

Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor?

(2.) Can God's will of making one vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor be resisted?

Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

(3.) Can God's will to show His wrath, and to make his power known on vessels of wrath fitted to destruction be resisted?

Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

(4.) Can God's will to make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy (which he had afore prepared unto glory) be resisted?

Rom 9:24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Rom 9:25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
Rom 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
Rom 9:28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
Rom 9:29 And as Isaiah said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom, and been made like unto Gomorrah.

God bless you! -Abraham

 2007/9/8 0:42
awakenwithin
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 985
AZ

 Re:

Brother Abraham,
I think this a best thing I have heard today..
Going through verse by verse. I miss that so much. I have found few bible studies that STUDY the bible verse by verse. This wonderful brother. You can hear men speaking of what they found, But can there be any greater joy when you find our self.. No my brother, this is the greatest joy, when we find the hidden treasurers when spend the time digging. In the word and praying. I agree lets come to with gentleness and humble heart. I do pray that we come to voice God.. Oh I do pray God keep us humble..

thank you.. Keep useing more verses. Come lets go the word, come lets taste and see how good the Lord is..

In His Love
charlene


_________________
charlene

 2007/9/8 1:30Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Going through verse by verse. I miss that so much. I have found few bible studies that STUDY the bible verse by verse.



So true. I was telling Mike something similar recently. I recommend Matthew Henry.

"First among the mighty (commentaries) for general usefulness we are bound to mention the man whose name is a household word, Matthew Henry. He is the most pious and pithy, sound and sensible, suggestive and sober, terse and trustworthy . . . he is deeply spiritual, heavenly, profitable; finding good matter in every text, and from all deducting the most practical and judicious lessons . . . It is the Christian's companion, suitable to everybody, instructive to all."
—Charles H. Spurgeon

 2007/9/16 23:48
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Many times simply following the flow of a chapter from verse to verse can undo many preconceived ideas about a pet text, and help you get to what is "really" being said.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/9/17 0:00Profile





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