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daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Isaiah 65 v 17-25 millenial state or eternal state?

Hello,

as I was reading through Isaiah, i came across this passage in Isaiah 65:

[17]
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[18]
But be ye glad and rejoice forever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
[19]
And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20]
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21]
And they shall build houses, and inhabit them ; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22]
They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
[23]
They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24]
And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
[25]
The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent 's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.


Revelation 21 teaches the same, John saw a new (fresh) heaven and a new earth, and he saw the New Heavenly Jerusalem coming down. This is after the Great White Throne, after the resurrection of the wicked and after the millenium. This is the eternal state.

So, this passage in Isaiah sounds exactly like all the other passages which are normally referred to the Millenium.
The only difference is the new heaven and earth.
Also this verse [20]
There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.

implies that there is death. But in the eternal state there can be no death.

Now I am confused. What is this talking about?
And when it really is talking about the eternal state, how de we know what the other passages in Isaiah that sound similar are referring to the millenium ?

I do not want to start a discussion about the millenium at all.
I would appreciate if no one begins to argue about whether the millenium is literal or not, or other such discussions.
Thank you for bearing!


Daniel


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2007/8/16 11:17Profile









 Re: Isaiah 65 v 17-25 millenial state or eternal state?

Hi Daniel

Good question, though I'm not sure exactly what you are after.

Can you simplify what exactly you want to know?

I don't understand this verse either :-?:
[i][b]There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed.[/b][/i]

I do know that the Scriptures have many layers of meaning. Future prophecy (future at least when it was written) can have more than one fulfillment. My favourite example (because every Christian knows that the ultimate fulfillment has already happened) is in Isaiah 7:14, "a virgin shall...bear a son" "Virgin" in the original simply means a young woman of marriagable age, maybe about to be married or recently married. The original context was a sign for a wicked king of Judah, who was scared of threatened enemy attack. The sign was that by the time a child about to be conceived (by a newly married girl?) was old enough to say "Daddy!" the enemy kings would be no more.

But we know NOW that there was far more hidden in that sign than anyone at the time (even Isaiah?) could understand.

Similarly we can't be absolutely certain how the end-time prophecies work out. There has no doubt already been partial fulfillment of much of it. But it is certain that not all has yet been fulfilled - not all these passages [i]mean[/i] that is - including the Millennium and the physical return of Christ.

Yet you could say that spiritually we are already in the Second Coming. Even though most Christians understand that there is still a physical coming that hasn't happened, when "every eye shall see Him".

At Pentecost Jesus DID, in a sense, return. As He said in John 14:18, speaking of the coming of the Spirit, [i][b]I will not leave you comfortless: [u]I will come to you[/u].[/b][/i]

But very few would claim that this was the final or ultimate fulfillment.

Don't know if this helps or further confuses matters!

Blessings

Jeannette



 2007/8/16 18:15









 Re: Isaiah 65 v 17-25 millenial state or eternal state?

Quote:
So, this passage in Isaiah sounds exactly like all the other passages which are normally referred to the Millenium.
The only difference is the new heaven and earth.

What difference do you mean? Isaiah and Revelation [i]both[/i] speak of a new heaven and new earth.

Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/8/16 18:18
daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re:

Hello LittleGift,

sorry for not clarifying my point.
What I mean is:

In this particular scripture the prophet is referring this passage to a time when there will be the new heaven and the new earth. This clearly is found again in Revelation 21 after the millenium. John saw a new heaven and a new earth and the heavenly Jerusalem.

So, this passage seemingly refers to that time. But why is there dead and sinners? This can't be!

There are many other passages in Isaiah that speak of a time where Jesus is going to reign with the rod of iron, where the lamb shall be with the lion and so on...
Yet these scriptures are always referred to the millenial kingdom and not to the eternal state in revelation 21.
Do you understand my question?

Thanks for the answer!
Daniel

[edit: to clarify further:
I do believe in the literal fullfillment of all those things of course. Jesus coming back and establishing his kingdom. I think that is clear throughout the scriptures. that does not mean that there cannot be also a 'spiritual fullfillment']


_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2007/8/16 18:33Profile









 Re:

Quote:

daniel- wrote:
Hello LittleGift,

sorry for not clarifying my point.
What I mean is:

In this particular scripture the prophet is referring this passage to a time when there will be the new heaven and the new earth. This clearly is found again in Revelation 21 after the millenium. John saw a new heaven and a new earth and the heavenly Jerusalem.

So, this passage seemingly refers to that time. But why is there dead and sinners? This can't be!

There are many other passages in Isaiah that speak of a time where Jesus is going to reign with the rod of iron, where the lamb shall be with the lion and so on...
Yet these scriptures are always referred to the millenial kingdom and not to the eternal state in revelation 21.
Do you understand my question?

Thanks for the answer!
Daniel

[edit: to clarify further:
I do believe in the literal fullfillment of all those things of course. Jesus coming back and establishing his kingdom. I think that is clear throughout the scriptures. that does not mean that there cannot be also a 'spiritual fullfillment']

I think we agree.

But both still puzzled about that one verse.

Must look it up. Maybe a commentary or different translation would help, but too late at night now (2 minutes to midnight here!)

Can anyone else shed some light?

HELLO???

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/8/16 19:00









 Re: Isaiah 65 v 17-25 millenial state or eternal state?

The best way to interpret scripture is via scripture and the Holy Ghost.

I hope some of the following helps your search for truth.

God Bless You Brother.

"For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." (ISA 65:17)

[i]"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless [b]we[/b], according to his promise, [b]look for new heavens and a new earth[/b], wherein dwelleth righteousness." (II PET 3:12-13)[/i]

"But be ye glad and rejoice forever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy." (ISA 65:18)

[i]"In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if [b]I go and prepare a place for you[/b], I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also." (JOHN 14:2-3)[/i]

[i]"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." (REV 3:12)[/i]

[i]"And I John saw the holy city, [b]new Jerusalem[/b], coming down from God out of heaven, [b]prepared[/b] as a bride adorned for her husband." (REV 21:12)[/i]

"And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying." (ISA 65:19)

[i]"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried... But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: [b]but now he is comforted[/b], and thou art tormented." (LUKE 16:22-25)[/i]

[i]"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (REV 21:4)[/i]

"There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die a hundred years old; but the sinner being a hundred years old shall be accursed." (ISA 65:20)

???

"And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them." (ISA 65:21)

[i]"He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock." (LUKE 6:48)[/i]

[i]"For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish." (LUKE 14:28-30)[/i]

[i]"Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?" (I COR 3:16)[/i]

[i]"Sow to yourselves in righteousness, reap in mercy; break up your fallow ground: for it is time to seek the LORD, till he come and rain righteousness upon you." (HOS 10:12)[/i]

[i]"And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire... But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." (MATT 3:10-13:8)[/i]

"They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands." (ISA 65:22)

[i]"And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and [i]take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:[/i]" (GEN 3:22)[/i]

[i]"She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her... The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise." (PRO 3:18 - 11:30)[/i]

[i]"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up." (JOHN 3:14)[/i]

[i]"The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree." (ACTS 5:30)[/i]

[i]"In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations... Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." (REV 22:2-14)[/i]

"They shall not labor in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them." (ISA 65:23)

[i]"He maketh the barren woman to keep house, and to be a joyful mother of children. Praise ye the LORD." (PSA 113:9)[/i]

[i]"Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD." (ISA 54:1)[/i]

[i]"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." (MATT 11:28-30)[/i]

[i]"And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life." (MATT 19:29)[/i]

[i]"For it is written, Rejoice, [thou] barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband." (GAL 4:27)[/i]

"And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear." (ISA 65:24)

[i]"Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him." (MATT 6:8)[/i]

[i]"Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full." (JOHN 16:24)[/i]

"The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent 's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD." (ISA 65:25)

???

 2007/8/16 19:25
daniel-
Member



Joined: 2005/8/25
Posts: 130
Germany

 Re:

What I have found in David Guzik's commentary:

ii. From John’s context we see that this new heavens and a new earth comes after the Great White Throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and is connected not with the millennial earth, but with the eternal state. If all we had to go by was Isaiah’s statement, we would automatically connect this new heavens and a new earth with the millennial earth, because immediately after Isaiah 65:17-19, we clearly find the millennial earth described. But based on what we find in 2 Peter and Revelation, we must see that Isaiah is in the prophetic habit of switching quickly from one time frame to another, speaking of the eternal state in Isaiah 65:17, and of the millennial earth in Isaiah 65:20-25.





_________________
Daniel Sahm

 2007/8/17 6:48Profile









 Re:

Quote:

daniel- wrote:
What I have found in David Guzik's commentary:

ii. From John’s context we see that this new heavens and a new earth comes after the Great White Throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) and is connected not with the millennial earth, but with the eternal state. If all we had to go by was Isaiah’s statement, we would automatically connect this new heavens and a new earth with the millennial earth, because immediately after Isaiah 65:17-19, we clearly find the millennial earth described. But based on what we find in 2 Peter and Revelation, we must see that [u]Isaiah is in the prophetic habit of switching quickly from one time frame to another, speaking of the eternal state in Isaiah 65:17, and of the millennial earth in Isaiah 65:20-25[/u].

Still haven't got around to looking it up but this makes sense. I especially like the part underlined.

Many Bible writers, especially in "revelatory mode" switch time frames. Maybe part of the reason is so that we will HAVE to have faith and the same Spirit who revealed it to them revealing it afresh to us. Otherwise we won't be able to receive what is being said, and understand it.

That is, we will understand it if the Lord is ready to reveal it, and we are in the place with Him to hear.

Revelation, in this sense, is progressive. It depends on where on the "timeline" of God's dealings with man we happen to be, what we need to understand from Scripture.

I think it was Watchman Nee who, commenting on Peter's speech on the Day of Pentecost, pointed out that when Peter said "This is that which was spoken by the propet Joel..." he wasn't talking about a literal point by point identical thing. Joel didn't mention speaking in other languages, while at Pentecost there wasn't anyone dreaming dreams etc because they were all wide awake!

Yet Peter suddenly understood that this in essence WAS what Joel was talking about!

So, when things begin to happen as Scripture foretells, we, if we are in the Spirit, watching and praying, will recognise events as they unfold. In the same way that Simeon and Anna recognised the infant Jesus as the Messiah, even though His first coming wasn't anything like the majority of Israel expected. (

Born in a stable! looked like any other baby, cried burped, wet His nappy (if they had nappies in those days!) Earthly parents were ordinary working class folk, even if they were both from the Davidic line. A poor couple, who could only afford two pigeons as a sacrifice for His birth!

How would anyone not in the Spirit recognise who He was?

Similarly how can we hope to understand the things of the Last Days, and the times we are living in, unless the Lord opens our hearts to understand the Scriptures, and the signs leading to His second coming?

How can we hope to escape deception, as it becomes ever more subtle? How can we hope to recognise the Antichrist, the counterfeit Christ, who will appear to most of the world's population to be the real One? (Some Christians of course don't believe we will be here when he is revealed - but what if the pre trib idea is mistaken and we are still here after all???

I've gone a little off the point, but these are such vital issues in these days that I hope you will excuse me.


...Is anyone else out there? This is getting like a two man band on this thread! :-P


Blessings

Jeannette

 2007/8/17 14:52









 Re:

Quote:
...Is anyone else out there? This is getting like a two man band on this thread! :-P

Oh, hi Bro. Corey, didn't notice you had joined in. Welcome to the band!

 2007/8/17 14:55









 Re:


Oh, hi Bro. Corey, didn't notice you had joined in. Welcome to the band!

I love your threading together of a necklace of Scriptures, as you did above. Helps us focus on what's REALLY important.

In Him

Jeannette

 2007/8/17 14:58





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