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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : What exactly was the church at Ephesus to return to and flee from?

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 Re:

Littlegift wrote:
Maybe they were like a wife who works her fingers to the bone caring for her home, making sure her husband lacks for nothing. Everything is beautiful, comfortable, neat and tidy. His slippers are by his chair, his supper ready to put on the table the instant he arrives home from work. She delights in serving him.

But she is so busy serving that the preparation of the home, the service, becomes an end in itself.

The husband, while grateful and full of praise for his wife must wish for a little more of herself. Does she have to stand with folded hands watching him eat, as if she was a maid, not a wife? Does she have to whisk away the dishes and wash them as soon as he's eaten?

If only she would just sit with him, talk with him of the things that husband and wife talk about, join in the meal with him, keep him company!

So much time spent serving, so much time spent doing, so much time making sure everything is perfect and spotless. But no time for HIM!


moe_mac wrote: Good points
We know from the scriptures that when Jesus visited with Mary and Martha, in like mannner, as you stated, Jesus said that Mary done the greater thing at Jesus' feet. But, what if Jesus had entered the house and both Mary and Martha, acted as though he had not came in and ignored HIM? What if, Martha had not prepared the meal? What if Mary was in other room watching desperate housewives on TV. Jesus commented to Martha that Mary did the greater thing.Did Jesus indicate Martha's work was in vain? What it her motives and the attitude of the heart was wrong or the actions? Was it that Martha's offering to Jesus was distracting her from being in HIS presence? Was Martha jealous of Mary's relationship with Jesus rather than sharing HIM with everyone, and was it that maybe Martha's motives was not right in her offering and it really wasn't the deeds that Martha was wrong that were wrong but the attitude and jealousy while doing them. And what if the church of Ephesus who once had the love as Mary and the deeds of Martha with no jealousy. Were they were doing all the right things? Did they have the right motive? Over a period of time when Jesus came to their house, maybe they didn't even notice Jesus was in the house? edit again: Or could it be, the Ephesian church was conducting themselves after a period of time in complacency, as to reveal the fact Jesus was not even in the house?

 2007/8/13 12:36
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Also, I noticed one comment, the church at Ephesus, was the only church in the group, to be warned of the removal of the lampstand. You would think Philadelphia did have a Lampstand. Do you think some of the other churches mentioned in Rev. 2 did not have a lampstand to remove, observing the sharp rebuke.



[color=0033FF]The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. (Revelation 1:20 NKJV)[/color]

I'm not sure that the church 'has' a lampstand, I think the church is the lampstand. The Tabernacle lampstand was effectively 7 little shelves in the form of an olive tree. The lamps sat on these little shelves. The NT picture is slightly different but again these are lampstands ie to lift the light higher to give more light. The OT light only touched earth in one place ie Israel, it had one foot. The NT light has 'seven' places where it touches earth and is not restricted to a single territory.

[color=0033FF]Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. (Matthew 5:15 NKJV)[/color]

The light will shine on, perhaps in some other place, but the lampstand may be removed if it does not meet Christ's requirements.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/8/13 12:53Profile









 Re:

philologos
The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw are the seven churches. (Revelation 1:20 NKJV)

I'm not sure that the church 'has' a lampstand, I think the church is the lampstand. The Tabernacle lampstand was effectively 7 little shelves in the form of an olive tree. The lamps sat on these little shelves. The NT picture is slightly different but again these are lampstands ie to lift the light higher to give more light. The OT light only touched earth in one place ie Israel, it had one foot. The NT light has 'seven' places where it touches earth and is not restricted to a single territory.

Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. (Matthew 5:15 NKJV)

The light will shine on, perhaps in some other place, but the lampstand may be removed if it does not meet Christ's requirements.


moe-mac wrote: good answer philologos
How many times have I read that passage I then go brain dead and asked that question. Thanks. Brother/Sister I don't know, is it great when someone just copies and paste strait from HIS WORD with an answer. Who could augue with that other than one who would read a sign post and then go the wrong direction. Thanks again for your post all all comments from others as well.

 2007/8/13 13:53
gloria04
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Joined: 2011/1/4
Posts: 1


 Re:

The church at Ephesus is very prominent city on the western part of the Roman province of Asia. The Ephesians lost their love for Jesus. They have become so busy in their works that they forgot why they labor. The Bible tells us that first commandment is to love Lord with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength.


<a href="http://www.ephesus.ws/ancient-ephesus-city.html">Ancient Ephesus</a>

 2011/1/4 7:03Profile









 Re:

Surprised to see an old thread pop up. Quite a warning in these verses. I've had my own view of this particular Church, that hits close to home - which, taking it personally, is difficult to express, but I'd like to try. This was written while some of the Apostles & servants who went to Ephesus and dealt with it's problems were still alive or greatly remembered or were arrested for having this calling (example: Paul & Timothy), so we can partly understand this zeal that this Church exhibited, by their example and writings.

Rev 2:2, 3 I know thy works - [Good]
and thy labour - [Good]
and thy patience - [Good]
** and how thou 'canst not bear them' which are evil - [Good]
** and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and 'hast found them liars' - [Good]
And hast borne (or sustained) - [Good]
and hast patience - [Good]
and for my name's sake hast laboured - [Good]
and hast not fainted - [Good]
2:6 ** ........ 'thou hatest the deeds' of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. [Good]


This sounds like a Church with discernment, from those lines marked with **.

They could not bear those who are evil, they discerned and exposed false apostles and found them to be liars and they hated the deeds of the Nicolaitans -- they endeavored to keep the Church pure and working properly, laboring without fainting, but they lost their "love".

The LORD never told them to Not do these things but praised them for continuing in these things yet, they needed to return to 'love'.
They had a zeal & even patience - which 'had' to be based on a Love for GOD at some point in time. The LORD commends them for this zeal for truth, purity and patient labors without fainting, but anyone who has dealt for long periods with evil 'in' the Church plus "false apostles" and "heresies" knows that it can take it's toll and eventually cause some to become angry, "hating 'the deeds of' ...." the 3 groups mentioned in these verses.

Even Righteous anger or indignation at evil can turn into another type of anger that chills love. They were commended for keeping the Church pure in it's beliefs and having the discernment to keep out false apostles, so these things are not wrong but praise worthy, yet can become a source of irritation at those whom they find are dangerous to His Body and the strain/pain or effort it takes for those who are trying to protect the Church from these evil doers, imposters and false doctrines can have it's negative, but not excusable affects on those trying to watch over the Church, as Paul did.
In Vs 3 they're commended for what they had endured and for their patience and for the fact that they had "labored and didn't faint" ---- "For His Name's Sake" - which by the wording, was indeed their motive - for His Name's sake.


What I'm more inclined to believe is that their love 'for people' suffered loss because of all that they had to expose & deal with in protecting the Church and that is equally compared to our Love for Him... and not just loving our brothers but going so far as to command us to "love our enemies." His enemies are our enemies, as He said they would be - yet He told us to love them all. To love others as we love ourselves, is included in the First commandment.


1Jn 4:11-13 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another. No man hath seen God at any time.
IF we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
Hereby know we that we dwell in Him, and He in us, because He hath given us of His Spirit.
1Jn 4:20, 21 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from Him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; that ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

etc., like Stephen did.


Jesus and the writers of the N.T. have instructed us on what to do with these false-brethren that were present at Ephesus since had Paul left them -- such as "from such depart" - "have no company with" - "with such, don't even eat" - "don't say to them, God bless you" - "to remove them from The Church" and so forth --- But or Yet, can we still keep our 'Love' in check - without compromising with these?

Apparently we're expected to, from this warning to this Church that Timothy pastored (1 Tim 1:30), where Paul left him to deal with the growing problem of false teachers .... as Paul had warned (with tears) would happen after he himself had left there (Acts 20:28-30).

Those who continued to try to hold back these same forces in this church at Ephesus, [that Paul cried over for three years while he was there, before passing the mantel to Timothy, to continue that same protective fight], had persevered in this fight, more than likely with the words of Paul & Timothy etc fresh within their minds - But -
I am going to interject my own opinion again -- it is difficult to seperate, or keep seperated, the hatred for the promotion of and allowance of evil-doing in the Church, lying imposter's actions/motives or heresy spreader's 'deeds' and still love these people that you are commanded to 'deal with' and deal with continually and unpleasantly. It was draining for Paul and will continue to cause strain in those who are even so much as 'seeing' these practices go on today.

Jesus and the writers of Scripture warned us that, 'evil doers, false apostles & more, and those who hold dangerous doctrines will only increase'.
I take this warning to this Church personally - hate the sin but love the sinner - love your enemies -- But, protect His Church by doing this 'dirty work' - even when needing to love these dangerous heretics, hirelings and imposters at a distance - pray for them - cry out for His Love for even the worst of them - yet keep on protecting His flock.

Keep protecting ALL Yet keep your love for all. That's a hard saying (that maybe good parents that have been challenged with a rebellious child would understand). Very challenging. Very difficult. So important. GOD help us to do both.

".....thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent."

 2011/1/8 11:14





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