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 Re:

1 Corinthians 15:

42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:

43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:

44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.



 2007/8/26 5:16









 Re:

Quote:
I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.



Phillip would you clarify this for Ormly,

Are you saying there is more than one "Only Begotten Son" Since you didn't capitalize *ONLY* in "Only Begotten Son" it could be read two different ways.

Or are you saying God has more "only Begotten Son's?"

AND Since you keep saying you are *Birth by God*, You have been *birth by God*, I was just wondering now, are you in agreement with Ormly?

You are not Birthed by God the way Jesus Christ was Birth by God. You mother was not a virgin, and was not overshaddowed by the Holy Spirit to birth you. And you are not fully God/fully man Now or ever... or else you too could die on a cross and shed your blood for the forgivness of sin for others as well. Jesus came into the world TO SAVE SINNERS. He shed His Blood, and NOW in Heaven, Glorified, I don't believe he has any blood...He poured it out for our sin.


SINNERS now saved through the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, who have put their faith and trust In Him and HIS finished work of redemption at Calvary are:

QUICKENED together With Christ, the Risen Christ. This is where *our birthing* comes in.


Added for content:
Many fail to see that Adam and Eve we not seated with Christ in *Heavenly Places*, or even promised to be seated In Heavenly places, or realize sin entered the universe long before Adam & Eve were formed of the dust of the earth...earthly creatures. THat the Blood of Jesus Christ was too carried to Heaven and purged the Heavens as well (Hebrews) Eating the fruit of the tree of life would not give them Glorification, but they would have lived forever in the status they were created...out of teh dust of teh earth...earthly. Because they sinned, they were cast out of the Garden of Eden, for fear AFTER they sinned, they would live an eternal existance with a sin nature. AND that they were given only a small piece of real- estate called the Garden of Eden. NOT dominion of the whole earth. The actual dimentions are listed in Genesis.

Thanks,

Katy-did
1 Peter 1:3

Just to clarify our Begottenness comes ONLY through the RESURRECTION of Jesus Christ. CHRIST IN YOU, the Hope of GLORY. There is only ONE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, and throught THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, we are saved THROUGH HIM ALONE.


[b][color=CC0000]1 Peter 1:3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

John 1:14
And the **Word was made flesh**, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, **by the word of God**, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jesus said My WORDS are Spirit and they are LIFE.


1 John 4:9
In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

[/color][/b]

 2007/8/26 5:23









 Re:

Quote:

Christinyou wrote:
Orm,

Quote:
I wrote this: I am my Father's son but I am not my Father.



Though you are son, you are one by nature and not yet by character.

Quote:
I am my Father's son but not the only Begotten Son.



I can see that as being true because you/we were begotten in the Father [b]before time began[/b]. I.e., in His Heart and Mind. 1Pet.1.3 says this which infers the correctness of it: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy [b]hath begotten us [u]again[/u][/b] unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)

That is part of what the "work" of the Cross accomplished.

Quote:
When I am changed I will be just like Him.



Yes. That will be the finality of it all.

What a priviledge we have if we can just see it.






 2007/8/26 7:24









 Re:

Ormly said:


Quote:
This is what Adam was to have accomplished in him had he entered into the "way of the Cross", after which he would have had the inclination to eat of the "Tree of Life"; to finalize his Transfifuration; to become, to participate as God is, in Human Flesh



AGAIN Ormly, My question to you was based soley on your comment here. Please don't change the subject or try to avoid teh direct question.

Where does scripture say Adam and Eve were promised a finalization of their transfiguration, to be as God is in Human flesh? There is only ONE who became God in Human Flesh...Jesus Christ.

Did you read 1st Corinthians 15? Do you still not get it? Do you actually think Adam and Eve thwarted God's plan from the beginning of time because they sinned. Don't you suppose God already knew that would happen? What you think was suppose to have happened was never in the plan to begin with. Or else you are saying MAN has control over the universe, threw Heaven and earth out of control, and God was in Heaven scratching his head saying Oh No! now what do we do? Why are we more blessed in the end then in the Beginning? As I said, man is lower than Angels, We In Christ are raised up NOW above the Angels. Was that our reward for sin to begin with? Something bettter? This is the MYSTERY that was kept secret from **before*** the foundation of the world., which would mean, God wasn't scratching His head saying OH No! Now what do we do.

Again, all you say is based on nothing you can back up with Scripture. If you use the words Begotten AGAIN, then there would have to be a FIRST. Adam and Eve were NOT BEGOTTEN, but formed of the dust of the earth. God breathed into Adam's nostrals and he became a living soul.

1 Corinthians says the first(Adam) was not spiritual but earthly. Our Glorification / Transfiguration if that's what you say, is IN CHRIST, not in and of itself, and not in an apple or peach.

Was the whole universe Heaven and Earth also going to be transformed with a deceiving serpent on the loose still, if they never sinned and ate the apple or peach? WOW, that must have been some kinda Tree of Life that could do all that through two human beings. I had no Idea God placed the whole of the universe in their hands, including Heaven.. Amazing....just amazing.

Katy-did

Added/ Edited
Hebrews 9:22-24

22And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

23It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

Was the Tree of Life that Adam and Eve didn't eat going to purify the heavens too?

 2007/8/26 8:02









 Re:

Quote:
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead" 1 Peter 1:3 (KJV)



Thank you Lord Jesus that your promise in Genesis 3:15 gave us that promise of mercy through your shed blood. We now have hope AGAIN where we were without hope.

Quote:
That is part of what the "work" of the Cross accomplished.



Is there another part that has not been accomplished? Does not scripture say in Colossians, WE ARE COMPLETE IN HIM.

Now what exaclty was this cross Adam and Eve were to enter before they sinned? The only Cross I know of Paul also referrs to as "The Blood of the Cross". SOOOOOO how were they to enter into a BLOODLESS Cross relationship? Well, I guess the same way the Hindu do. SELF EFFORT and SELF Sanctification, not to mention the rest of a dying world that rejects the BLOOD OF THE CROSS, which is apostasy and anti-christ.

Yep Ormly, we are as far as the east is from the west. I don't worship a bloodless cross, and Adam and Eve were never asked to enter into a bloodless cross relationship. That Blood washed away our SIN when they Fell, not a bloodless cross you want to believe is your transfiguration journey to wherever that is???!!!

Good Luck!!

 2007/8/26 8:48
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Katy-did, what do you think Jesus means when He says, "Take up your cross and follow me."?


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/26 8:50Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Katy-did,

You have completely hijacked this thread and thrust it into even more confusion with all sorts of innuendo's and insinuations and worse of all, accusations.

Granted, there is something a bit confusing here that I am not quite following either at this point, but it has nothing to do with all these things you are drumming up. Stop and think about what you are doing.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/8/26 8:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Katy-did,

You have completely hijacked this thread and thrust it into even more confusion with all sorts of innuendo's and insinuations and worse of all, accusations.

Granted, there is something a bit confusing here that I am not quite following either at this point, but it has nothing to do with all these things you are drumming up. Stop and think about what you are doing.



Thank you Crssck.

Please permit me to clear up, if I am able, whatever it is maybe a bit confusing to you. Nothing is easy to write out without saying it wrong in the process.... :-D

This verse may be a help when trying to understand that the 'Way of the Cross' is simply "self-renounciation":

"For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus [b][u]might be[/u] made manifest in our mortal flesh[/b].
2 Co 4:11

This is [can only be] the only process of becoming a son and heir and finally throne-ship.

 2007/8/26 9:12
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Soul and Spirit

Quote:
This verse may be a help when trying to understand that the 'Way of the Cross' is simply "self-renounciation":



Giving up our right to self ruler-ship ... Perhaps if I am following you Orm and taking off from a Chamberesque line of thought, he was often stating that the life is from the natural to the spiritual. And if I recall correctly, that was his understanding even of the first parents, that they while beginning unspoiled and without sin still would have had to grow along those lines ...

Quote:
Adam was to enter into it as the means, by a series of moral choices, to become a divine-son, one formed out of the red clay. He failed. There was no divine life in either of the two lives at the outset of their existence.



This sounds decidedly like Chambers but perhaps a large part of the confusion is that it seems to be missing a great deal of former context ... it makes that last line there ... I want to say yes and no,

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Just working through this ...

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Perhaps I just answered my own musings ...

Still a bit confusing where you intended to go with all this and the other question you asked which I also have given similar dwelling on, but seems better to wait on that for the moment.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/8/26 9:58Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
Quote:
This verse may be a help when trying to understand that the 'Way of the Cross' is simply "self-renounciation":



Giving up our right to self ruler-ship ... Perhaps if I am following you Orm and taking off from a Chamberesque line of thought, he was often stating that the life is from the natural to the spiritual. And if I recall correctly, that was his understanding even of the first parents, that they while beginning unspoiled and without sin still would have had to grow along those lines ...

Quote:
Adam was to enter into it as the means, by a series of moral choices, to become a divine-son, one formed out of the red clay. He failed. There was no divine life in either of the two lives at the outset of their existence.



This sounds decidedly like Chambers but perhaps a large part of the confusion is that it seems to be missing a great deal of former context ... it makes that last line there ... I want to say yes and no,

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Just working through this ...

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Perhaps I just answered my own musings ...

Still a bit confusing where you intended to go with all this and the other question you asked which I also have given similar dwelling on, but seems better to wait on that for the moment.


Your reference to the "Breath of Life" given Adam I see as a type of the "Breathing upon them" in the upper room in John 20.22 by Jesus. In both cases Life was administered. One being the breath of life unto an untried living soul, while the other a new life by the Holy Ghost unto a 'to be tried' spiritual life in Christ; a Divinity as the man Jesus experienced.
Though innocent and pure, Adam never enjoyed that. After all, what, in his mind, would be the need? Had he enjoyed it would have indicticated a divine connection between him and the Father. He had none. Had he had a divine connection, he wouldn't have failed. Why? There is an element of LOVE-ALLEGIANCE-VISION-JOY, that would have been in the mix. What he did have was "a daily walk" WITH the Divine and obedience was the only thing he could give God.
There would be no divinity for Adam at this time; no equality with the Father, and until the test of "self-renounciation" was completed. He failed that test.

"For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh". 2 Co 4:11

Adam was to do that.

I did my best to keep this condensed. I hope I haven't made it over so.

 2007/8/26 10:46





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