In replying to many posts I have noticed the inability of many to make good distinctions concerning the nature[s] and mission[s] of Christ with regards to the purposes of the Father that are summed up in the Man, Jesus. From His Divine conception to His Glorification, much happened inbetween for an example not much recognized as possible for the ordinary man who confesses Him as Savior. After all, it is declared, 'He was God and we can't be expected to follow suit'.What are your thoughts on this? Is it true or not that we can't be what He prayed we might be, i.e, in union with Him and the Father? [Jn17]. If it is true that we can be, what provision, made by Him, is there for us that we might be?
Reply to OrmlyThe verse that speaks to meJohn 1423. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.Eddie
brother ormly, i think this is a very good idea for a thread. i know that there is some i know and much i don't. i believe that we can and should live as Jesus did (1 john 2:6). we are in Him and the Father by the provision of the Holy Spirit. that is what my unity is in...His Life in me because His Spirit is in me. he that has the Son has Life. i am interested to see where this discussion goes. thanks.
Ormly, we are taught to abide in Him, to remain in His love so that we may bear much fruit. The Scriptures teaches us he who says he abides in Him must walk as Jesus walked. We must stay and be kept in His grace, and His Spirit works within us to make us one with the Father and the Son. :-D
_________________Martin G. Smith
[b][i]If all will take the time to read this it will bring fresh implication to our understanding of what is meant by Jesus being the "First of First Fruits".[/b][/i][b]What the Cross Realizes for God.[/b] "IN THE FIRST eight chapters of Romans, two aspects of salvation are presentedjustification by the Blood and deliverance through the Cross. This is a most important distinction. For, alas, many believers have wandered in defeat for many years, because they do not know or reckon on the union with Christ in His death on the Cross.While we must be careful to recognize that Christs finished work at Calvary is one complete work from Gods standpoint, yet it is finished in the individual believer only as he reckons on its efficacy and allows the truth to become operative in his life. Let us see how this works.[b]IN ADAM OR IN CHRIST[/b]God deals with the human race through two representative menAdam and Christ. A simple illustration will demonstrate the principle involved. By planting one kernel of corn, harvesting every kernel, and replanting year after year without destroying or using any of the corn; it would be possible to produce so much corn within twenty years that there would be no room for human life on the earth. Every grain of corn would have its beginning in the first tiny kernel. This is what Paul speaks of in Romans 5:12-21 when he explains that we all had our beginning in the first Adam. Through him sin and death have come upon the human race. But through Christ comes the new creation wherein is righteousnessHis righteousness.Another illustration of this truth is found in Hebrews where the writer shows how Levi was in Abrahams loins when he paid tithes to Melchizedek. As the father of a family, Abraham is seen to include his whole family within himself in making his offering; he included with himself all his seed. So it is that God sees two family trees: Adams family and Christs family. If our source of life is to change, it becomes evident that above all, one thing must happen. We must change families. Since we are born into Adams family, how can we get out? How can we become disentangled from the wretchedness of our inheritance through him? There is only one way to be freed. That is through death. By union with Christthe last Adam in His death, God sets us free from the tyrants who reign over Adam and his posterity. God not only speaks of the first and last Adam, but also of the first and second man. The realization that there would never be another Adam brought to me a wonderful unveiling of truth. When the Lord Jesus was crucified on the Cross, He was nailed there and laid in the tomb as the last Adam. All that was in the first Adam was gathered up and done away in Him. In Gods reckoning, Adam was left in the grave. We were included there."[b]My thought:[/b] [i]Interesting here is that all of mankind went into the grave with Jesus. Who comes out are the ones who embrace His salvation. Whosoever will
[/i] By Jesus death the old race was completely wiped out. Do you see it? There will never be another Adam. When Christ, as the last Adam, had moved into death, He had carried a whole family into the grave, and over it God had pronounced: The End! But Christ, as the second Man, brought forth a new race by His resurrection. The first man is of the earth earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.... And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly (1 Cor. 15:47-49). Now by one master stroke God has provided death to the old and the earthy. But He has provided life through the second Man, the Lord Jesus, who became the life-source of another new, heavenly creation. Through death, burial, and resurrection, we pass from the old family tree into a new family tree. We are no longer in Adam, but are now in Christ In this new position God considers us beyond the claims of old tyrants and brings us under His new government. What God counts as true of our position, we must appropriate as true in our life and walk. What a day it is when we recognize all that He designed to accomplish through-the Cross. In it God has liberated Adams race from four reigning tyrants death, sin, the law, and the flesh. Paul gives us this birds-eye view in the middle chapters of Romans:[b] Chapter 5: Freedom from sins penaltydeath Chapter 6: Freedom from sins tyrannybondage Chapter 7: Freedom from sins strengththe law Chapter 8: Freedom from sins presencethe flesh[/b]The redemption of the body, according to Roman 8, releases us finally from sins presence, which takes place at the second coming of the Lord. Nevertheless, Paul emphasizes that being moved positionally from Adam into Christ is more, much more, than having a new family position. In Adam we had received all that was of Adam as the life-source. Now, in Christ, we are to receive everything that is of Christour new Life-source. God intends this new life to be more than a position or a crisis experience. It is to be a new way of livinga new purpose for existence. Thank God, the hour has come when He is making His manner and purpose of life effectual in more of His children than ever before. But just here men so often take a detour and miss the key which will surely open the way of life unto God."[b]THE IMPORTANT KEY[/b] Many times in the past forty years of ministering in Bible conferences, folk have confessed to me, We have tried to make the truth of identification with Christ in death and resurrection real in our lives. Yet in spite of all our knowing, reckoning and yielding, it hasnt seemed to bring reality. It has not brought the victory and blessing which we sought. As I listen the problem becomes evident. Their very words reveal it. Without realizing the truth, these people are far more concerned for themselves than for Him. They are far more alive to what they want God to do for them, than what they might become unto Him, if they could, they would use God and the work of the Cross for their own ends. Here is the source of their trouble! The Cross is not the threshold to selfish attainment, but a terminal to selfishness. Many would use it for themselves, but God has designed that it should bring men wholly unto Him. Even among those who continually attend deeper life conferences and retreats, we find many who have fallen victim of this vicious snare. After years and years of reckoning on more knowledge and deeper teaching, they are still camping around their old self-center getting all God has for me, possessing all my possessions appropriating all my inheritance in Christ. Oh! May God strip the veneer and shatter every attempt at using the Cross, instead of dying on the Cross. Hidden behind most begging and pleading for God to give victory is the secret concern for ourselvesnot Himself. God will not condone this self centeredness. How many years I taught the truths of Romans six and counseled with those who were in defeat and bondage before I found this keyIn His death I am to become alive unto God! As long as a believers primary concern is to get victory or deliverance for himself; subtlety it means that he continues to live unto self. Four times in four verses in Romans six, God emphasizes that the key is living unto God:[b] V. 10 ... liveth unto God V. 11 ... alive unto God. V. 13 ... yield yourselves unto God. V. 13 ... as instruments unto God.[/b] What does God intend this to mean in actual practice? Simply that the primary thing He will realize through the Cross is to change mans old center and purpose of living and bring him unto Himself and His ultimate intention. Here is a Bible principlewhen we seek Him first, then all these things will be added. The very moment one becomes alive unto God, the door has opened for Him to accomplish victory and full deliverance.[b]TWO FAMILIES AND TWO TREES[/b] On the blackboard we have pictured the two families and the corresponding trees. One is the family in Adam, and the other is the family in Christ All who have their source in the life of Adam have followed in his selfish way by living unto their own purpose and plans. Now through the Cross, God has laid the axe to the root of the old family tree, in order that He might move man into a new family, and live unto God. Such a life is from a new source. One glance at our modern emphasis would teach us that Satans methods have not changed one whit since the Garden. He is still offering the same substitute for the tree of life. Today it is a modem cross in place of the old rugged Cross. In an earlier book (now out of print) we quoted A. W. Tozer: The new cross says Come and get. And a selfish human would be entirely contrary to his own nature if he refused. Of course, he will use the Cross for his own benefits. Whereas the old rugged Cross says, Come and give, and for the moment entirely ignores anything that the individual shall receive, save a baptism into death. And why does the old Cross demand so much? Simply because from the beginning God has only intended that this Christian life shall be based on this one principle: The new life is lived not unto self, but unto God (2 Cor. 5:14). Whereas the old Cross was meant by God to be the symbol of death and detachment from the old Adam life, this new substitute cross does not intend to slay the sinner, but just redirect him. It gears him into a cleaner, jollier way of living and saves his self-center and ambition. To the self- assertive it says: Come and assert yourself for Christ. To the religious egotist it says: Come and do your boasting in the Lord. To the thrill seeker it says: Come and enjoy the thrill of Christian fellowship. The modern message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue, thereby catering to human taste and reasoning. The old Cross would have no truck with the world. For Adams proud flesh it meant the end of the journey. It carried into effect the sentence imposed by the law of Sinai. The new cross is not opposed to the human race; rather, it is a friendly pal, and if understood aright, it is the source of oceans of good clean fun and innocent enjoyment. It lets Adam live without interference. His life motivation is unchanged; he still lives for his own pleasure, only now he takes delight in singing choruses and watching religious movies instead of singing bawdy songs and drinking hard liquor. The accent is still on enjoyment, though the fun is now on a higher plane morally, if not intellectually. If this was true forty years ago  when it was first written, how much more it is true today. One need only watch the converts of this new cross to realize that they have never had a changed center through union with Jesus in death on the old rugged Cross. But what is more alarming is that even our deeper life conferences have become victims (unconsciously, I trust) of this new philosophy and technique. To be sure the new cross approach has become popular because it has slipped in all unannounced and undetected. On the surface it appears to use the vocabulary of the old rugged Cross. Yet the likenesses are superficial while the differences are fundamental. The new cross offers a living unto self. The old Cross points to the heavenly way of living unto God.[b]THE HOLY SPIRIT MUST REVEAL[/b] I shall never forget one Sunday night several years ago when we were speaking about these two family trees. In using the blackboard, I had spoken from Romans 11 using Gods description of how the Gentiles of the wild olive tree were grafted into the good olive tree so that they might become partakers of a new life from the good tree, Of course I showed how this portion of Scripture directly applied to Gods cutting Israel off and grafting in the Gentiles; yet I showed how the principle applies to Gods cutting us off from the old family of Adam and, through death, moving us into Christ. In Him we have a new root, and if the root is holy, so are the branches. How often the Holy Spirit accomplishes more in one instant of revelation than in years of preaching or teaching. It was so that night. Suddenly the dear pastors wife stood to her feet and walked to the front. Tears coursed down her cheeks as she told how God had been speaking to her for days about living from the old Adamic source and living under the bondage of the old Adamic life. Then she explained, God could never have spoken more directly to me about my wild-olive living. Turning to me she said, Others knew, but you didnt. My first name is Olive. And these people know all too well how much of my life has been from the source of the old, wild Olive. During five weeks of ministry in that church the Holy Spirit graciously liberated many who had been living from the old family tree. Now by a real union in death and resurrection, they moved into a new family, living a purposeful life unto God. In Gods planning then, the Cross and the crucified One have become the gateway to life. Apart from this gateway, there can be no movement on the highway of realizing Gods purpose. While we are neither unmindful of the pit from whence we have been digged nor the Rock to which we have come, we do not linger in preoccupation with these. We move ever forward to realize the purpose of sonship for which we have been called. We shall always sing about the precious blood, glory in the cross, and exult in His life, but what previously have been crises will now become a walk forward and upward in fulfilling His ultimate intention. This is truly lifea new kind of life in a wholly different sphere. Death has yielded its throne to the higher law of love; the flesh has yielded its throne to the Spirit. All this is what the Cross has realized for God."*Excerpted from DeVern Fromke's book "THe Ultimate Intention".[copyrighted 1963]
As I listen the problem becomes evident. Their very words reveal it. Without realizing the truth, these people are far more concerned for themselves than for Him. They are far more alive to what they want God to do for them, than what they might become unto Him, if they could, they would use God and the work of the Cross for their own ends. Here is the source of their trouble! The Cross is not the threshold to selfish attainment, but a terminal to selfishness. Many would use it for themselves, but God has designed that it should bring men wholly unto Him.Even among those who continually attend deeper life conferences and retreats, we find many who have fallen victim of this vicious snare. After years and years of reckoning on more knowledge and deeper teaching, they are still camping around their old self-center getting all God has for me, possessing all my possessions appropriating all my inheritance in Christ.Oh! May God strip the veneer and shatter every attempt at using the Cross, instead of dying on the Cross. Hidden behind most begging and pleading for God to give victory is the secret concern for ourselvesnot Himself. God will not condone this self centeredness. How many years I taught the truths of Romans six and counseled with those who were in defeat and bondage before I found this keyIn His death I am to become alive unto God! As long as a believers primary concern is to get victory or deliverance for himself; subtlety it means that he continues to live unto self. Whereas the old Cross was meant by God to be the symbol of death and detachment from the old Adam life, this new substitute cross does not intend to slay the sinner, but just redirect him. It gears him into a cleaner, jollier way of living and saves his self-center and ambition. To the self- assertive it says: Come and assert yourself for Christ. To the religious egotist it says: Come and do your boasting in the Lord. To the thrill seeker it says: Come and enjoy the thrill of Christian fellowship. The modern message is slanted in the direction of the current vogue, thereby catering to human taste and reasoning.
For Christ to bear much fruit, what had to happen? Jhn 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. Unless we die we abide alone. Being crucified with Him we are dead to the old spirit of our old father, Satan, "You are of your father the devil", but alive unto God by Christ Jesus, which give us new birth in spirit. Dead to our old man and alive unto God through Christ Jesus.Our minds are being renewed to the Mind of Christ. This gives our minds resurrection from the old dead man mind and give the Mind of Christ to be renewed unto life in Christ Jesus.Praise God this body will die that it might die alone and be renewed unto God by Christ Jesus and our new bodies which will be like His we are no longer alone, and we are saved, being saved and will be saved. Saved producing fruit in spirit by His Spirit, not alone. Being saved in mind by renewing it by the Holy Spirit to the Mind of Christ, not alone, our soul alive unto God by the Mind of Christ and the filling of the Holy Spirit. Will be saved by death of the body and resurrected with Christ at His coming. Finally complete, never alone again. New life in Christ in all three areas of our life, Spirit, Soul and Body, producing fruit unto the Father.In Christ: Phillip
Greg has some of GW North's sermons here on sermon index but this thread reminded me of one of his shorter books. These books are now 'out of print' but you can download a copy of [url=http://mp3.biblebase.com/download_45.html]The Representative Man[/url] here.The style is a little archaic, but it is well worth reading it slowly.
Ron, I have not read all, but 4 pages are so full of truth as it has been revealed to me that the agreement of that revelation and what is written is so great and wonderful in the face of the revelation power of who this Christ is that has been born again from above in us, the agreement has made my heart soar as an eagle or a sleek smooth beautiful and soaring glider, I speak from experience, as I am a glider instructor. Thanks for the beautiful knowing that there is more than one that hears this message, this wonderful mystery of "Christ in you the hope of Glory".In Christ: Phillip
When you have finished that one there is a whole library of his writings available. You almost need to rewind to the rythymns of 30 years ago to hear what he is saying but if you are prepared to take the time there is gold here.I would particularly recommend, in this order,The Generation of Jesus ChristThe Blood of GodFruit unto GodYou'll find them on [url=http://ncw.biblebase.com/modules/mylinks/visit.php?cid=3&lid=11]these pages.[/url]