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Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re: Ormly

Really???
I have only been a Christian for a a year and a half. I look at TULIP (as a whole) and don't see it in my Scripture study. I absolutely see Total Depravity....it is an absolute Truth. We were created from an infinite God. We fell out of communion with Him. We are infinitly below Him and unable to even seek Him. Without His grace/love/mercy working in us and through us, we would not be able to respond to His call to salvation. Here how about I re-word it. Since God is infinite and we are finite...we'll call it infinite depravity. How's that? We are infinitley depraved of God in our sinful state.

Thom

 2007/8/9 12:55Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.



Sorry, this verse doesn't say anything about total depravity or being born a sinner. The Psalms say numerous times that God shapes in the womb.

1. We are shapen in iniquity [i]and it is God who shapes us thus.[/i]

or

2. The Psalms are poetic and sometimes use poetic language.

Quote:
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.



Again, poetic language to describe how evil the wicked are. Saying this means that all men are totally depraved from birth and can do nothing but evil all the time is reading way way into it.

Quote:
Rom 5:18-19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.



Hold it hold it. This is sloppy scripture exegesis..

Lets follow the analogy:

1.
by the offence
by the righteousness

2.
of one
of one

3.
judgment came
the free gift came

4.
upon all men
upon all men

5.
to condemnation
unto justification of life

Therefore, in whatever way that judgment cam upon [b]all men[/b], justification also came upon [b]all men[/b].

Justification is not [b]forced[/b] upon all men.
Neither is condemnation [b]forced[/b] upon all men.

But both have [b]come[/b] upon all men: condemnation through Adam, and justification through Jesus.

It is the individuals choices that determine whether they are condemned or justified.

If you live in sin, which has come upon all men by Adam, you will be condemned.
If you live in God, which has come upon all men by Jesus,you will be justified.

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/9 13:29Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Romans 7 is pauls testimony before he was saved.

No, it cannot be as no natural man delights in God's Law-
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God [b]after the inward man:[/b]

Paul was a pharisee, he loved Gods Law.

[b]Gal 1:14[/b] [color=990000]And advanced in the Jews' religion above many of my equals in my own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.[/color]
[b]Php 3:5-6[/b] [color=990000]Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, a Pharisee;
[b]:6[/b] Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; [b]concerning the righteousness which is in the law, [u]blameless[/u].[/b] [/color]

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
The point of this passage is the struggle of the two natures,


[b]Jamess 1:8[/b] [color=990000]A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.[/color]

double-minded = Strongs Greek #1374
δίψυχος
dipsuchos
dip'-soo-khos
From G1364 and G5590; [b]two spirited[/b], that is, vacillating (in opinion or purpose): - [b]double souled[/b].
The theory of "two natures" is very bad, it is worng.

Paul, nor any Christian is not two spirited, double souled, or "two natured"

Romans 7 was Pauls pre-salvation Testemony.

[b]Jas 4:8[/b] [color=990000]Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, [b]you sinners[/b]; and purify your hearts, you [b]double-minded[/b].[/color]
A Christian is not a sinner.

The conclusion stands that "Total Depravity" is false.
Only depravity.

P.S.
[b]AMEN Nile!!![/b]

 2007/8/9 13:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Provost wrote:
Really???
I have only been a Christian for a a year and a half. I look at TULIP (as a whole) and don't see it in my Scripture study. I absolutely see Total Depravity....it is an absolute Truth. We were created from an infinite God. We fell out of communion with Him. We are infinitly below Him and unable to even seek Him. Without His grace/love/mercy working in us and through us, we would not be able to respond to His call to salvation. Here how about I re-word it. Since God is infinite and we are finite...we'll call it infinite depravity. How's that? We are infinitley depraved of God in our sinful state.

Thom



Spoken to fallen "totally depraved man":

"You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 (HCSB) ...and I took that from a translation whose writers believes in total depravity. Here's another one I like: "I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me."
Proverbs 8:17 (KJV)

Whadda think, did I go wrong somewhere? Did I mis-apply these verses?

 2007/8/9 14:37
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re: Ormly

""You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 (HCSB) ...and I took that from a translation whose writers believes in total depravity. Here's another one I like: "I love
Whadda think, did I go wrong somewhere? Did I mis-apply these verses?"

As humbly as I can say yes you did mis-apply those verses. Jeremiah is talking to the elect of God (I do not mean "elect" in the sense of unconditional election..I don't agree with that view). Jeremiah is addressing people who have faith in God.

Jer. 29:1 This is the text of the letter that the prophet Jeremiah sent from Jerusalem to the surviving elders among the exiles and to the priests, the prophets and all the other people

In context the people Jer. was talking to already had faith in the true God. Not to those depraved from a knowledge of Him.

As far as Prov. 8
In Biblical Interp. you will see that Proverbs contain general truths and not always absolute truths. When we look at another Scripture regarding seeking...
Romans 3..."There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."

So when looking at the verse in Proverbs comparing it to other Scripture passages, we would need to say that when the redeemed (since no one seeks God, unless redeemed..that is what Romans 3 is saying in the context of the chapter/book) seek God they will find Him.

I don't agree with everything I have heard regarding TULIP, but I know that we are radically/totally/infinitely depraved of God. And unless we respond to his effectual calling, there is no way we even look for Him, b/c we are depraved

In HIm
Thom

 2007/8/9 15:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Provost wrote:
""You will seek Me and find Me when you search for Me with all your heart." Jeremiah 29:13 (HCSB) ...and I took that from a translation whose writers believes in total depravity. Here's another one I like: "I love
Whadda think, did I go wrong somewhere? Did I mis-apply these verses?"

As humbly as I can say yes you did mis-apply those verses. Jeremiah is talking to the elect of God (I do not mean "elect" in the sense of unconditional election..I don't agree with that view). Jeremiah is addressing people who have faith in God.
Thom



Er, It was to fallen man, elect or not, God was addressing and since faith is not a gift, where did they get it that they "might" believe? I know where they got it.

Re:
Romans 3..."There is no one righteous, not even one;
11there is no one who understands,
no one who seeks God.
12All have turned away,


Turned away?? I thought they couldn't seek Him? You have been saying they don't even want to seek Him.
But I guess you can explain this.

Quote:
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one."



What you fail to see is that they "could" have but didn't or wouldn't. God's punsisment doesn't rest upon those who can't, but who won't.

 2007/8/9 15:30
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Faith comes by the Word of God. That's it...His Word. Which shows that He has to take the intiative toward us before we can believe or obtain faith in Him. Since we are fully depraved He needs to take initiative. We cannot "might" our will into believing in God, and this is what I mean by depravity. I am NOT taking away the tension of man's free-will in salvation (I say tension, b/c we cannot do anything to gain salvation, it is only good pleasure of God we are saved, but there we are called to respond in faith...to deny that is to lose the Word of God and replace it with the word of man), but God needs to work in us before any kind of response is possible. To deny that fact (of our depravity and our need for His Word) is to reject the revealed Truths of God in His Word.

In Christ
Thom

 2007/8/9 15:46Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Provost wrote:
To deny that fact (of our depravity and our need for His Word) is to reject the revealed Truths of God in His Word.

No one is rejecting or denying the depravity of man, but only the "totalness" or "totality" of the depravity.

 2007/8/9 16:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Provost wrote:
Faith comes by the Word of God. That's it...His Word.



You mean faith towards Jesus Christ, correct? In Jeremiah that can't apply. Again, I ask where does faith to believe; have confidence in ANYTHING of ANYONE, come from? Consider, faith to believe is a creation capability given man. I am sure you have heard the expression, "mis-placed faith".

Quote:
Which shows that He has to take the intiative toward us before we can believe or obtain faith in Him. Since we are fully depraved He needs to take initiative.



When you start off with the wrong perspective for the reason of God's saving grace, don't expect to find the answers that will satisfy you. Redemption is only part of the whole.

Quote:
We cannot "might" our will into believing in God, and this is what I mean by depravity.



God is always saying, "if" we will, He will. That is throughout the OT and NT. Its unarguable. Please read that a few times before ignoring it.

Quote:
I am NOT taking away the tension of man's free-will in salvation (I say tension, b/c we cannot do anything to gain salvation,



I know all that, however your word "tension" is an abstract that only muddies the water.. I don't know what you are trying to say by using it.

Quote:
it is only good pleasure of God we are saved,



Can you put into words what His pleasure is to you? I mean something more than floating around on a cloud playing a harp.

Quote:
but there we are called to respond in faith...to deny that is to lose the Word of God and replace it with the word of man), but God needs to work in us before any kind of response is possible.



Lets see, man always believes in something or someone, even if it simply himself, correct? But God must give us the faith required to believe in Him because our faith is placed in something else or is somewhere else. Do I have that part right?

If I have nothing to do with my salvation what is it I have to accept? In other words, if I say I will believe, you are forced to conclude I can't.... and be saved. On the other hand you just might conclude God gave me faith at that moment to say "I will believe". One thing bothers me, what do you do when, after everyone crys and praises God for my salvation, I return to living by the worlds standard and never again mention His Name except maybe on Sunday morn? Where do you place that in your thinking when comes to God's gift of faith to me?

Quote:
To deny that fact (of our depravity and our need for His Word) is to reject the revealed Truths of God in His Word.


No its not. The term "total depravity" is not found anywhere in the scriptures nor is anything that equates with it. Therefore your understanding is from Commentary and not the scriptures. If your Bible is one with a commentary, throw it away and buy one without it.
Sorry, but thats the truth. Study the Bible and write own commentary.

In Christ,
Orm

PS. God took the initiative towards us when Adam was created. Think about it.

 2007/8/9 16:56
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

4 thoughts and I am done

1. The Law was to show us our depravity. The law told us we cannot do it.

2. Jesus was God. God the infinite came down to restore what we could not restore. The Cross is not there to show us how much God loves us. The cross cries out "God had to die, that's how depraved you are!"

3. You said to ignore Biblical commentary. I would say that reveals extreme amounts of pride. You are telling us that you refuse to listen to men who are filled with the Holy Spirit. We are a body, cut out the voices of men of faith is to tell Christ that you do not need the body of believers.

4. Get into a book on Biblical Interp. or take a class It should help in teaching you how to take your presuppositions out of the text and let the Holy Spirit reveal the revelation that is etched in stone.

We all as brothers need to earnestly seek after the face of God. He will complete the work that He began in you. He has saved you and pulled you from the pits of Hell. I pray that He will continue to work in you. Thanx be to God that He has given you treasure to carry in your jar of clay.

Forever in His embrace
Thom

 2007/8/9 17:30Profile





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