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 Basic Scripture Texts (Total Depravity)

(Genesis 2:17) "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

(Genesis 6:5) "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

(Job 14:4) "Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one."

(Psalms 51:5) "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

(Psalms 58:3) "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

(Proverbs 30:12) "There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness."

(Isaiah 1:2-8) "Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me. {3} The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider. {4} Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward. {5} Why should ye be stricken any more? ye will revolt more and more: the whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. {6} From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment. {7} Your country is desolate, your cities are burned with fire: your land, strangers devour it in your presence, and it is desolate, as overthrown by strangers. {8} And the daughter of Zion is left as a cottage in a vineyard, as a lodge in a garden of cucumbers, as a besieged city."

(Isaiah 40:6-8) "The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field: {7} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the LORD bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass. {8} The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever."

(Isaiah 64:6) "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."

(Jeremiah 13:23) "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

(Jeremiah 17:9) "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

(Matthew 11:25) "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."

(John 3:3) "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

(John 3:19) "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."

(John 8:19) "Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also."

(John 14:16) "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

(Romans 3:10-12) "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: {11} There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. {12} They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

(Romans 5:12) "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"

(1 Corinthians 1:18) "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God."

(1 Corinthians 2:14) "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

(2 Corinthians 1:9) "But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:"

(Ephesians 2:1-3) "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins: {2} Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: {3} Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

(Ephesians 2:12) "That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:"


Edit Addition: Write down these text, find a prayer closet, humbly ask the Lord to teach you, and meditate on these text.

Genesis 6:5, 6:11-12, 8:21
Deuteronomy 29:2-4
1 Kings 8:46
2 Chronicles 36:15-16
Job 14:4, 15:14-16
Psalms 2:2-3,5:9,14:1-3,50:16-17,51:5,58:3,143:2
Proverbs 5:22, 14:12, 20:9, 30:12
Ecclesiastes 7:20-29, 9:3
Ezekiel 11:19-20, 16:6, 36:26-27
Isaiah 1:2-8, 29:16, 40:6-8, 44:18-28, 48:8, 53:6, 64:6-7
Jeremiah 4:22, 9:5, 13:23, 17:1-9
Matthew 6:24, 7:18, 7:23-24, 10:20, 12:34-35, 15:13-19
Mark 10:26-27
Luke 8:11-12
John 1:13, 3:3,6-8, 3:19-20, 3:27, 4:14, 5:24, 6:37-51, 6:65, 8:19, 8:43-47, 10:28-30, 11:25, 15:5, 17:24
Romans 1:18-32, 3:9-24, 4:8, 5:12, 6:16-22, 7:14-18, 8:5-8, 8:28-39, 9:8, 9:20, 11:8, 11:32, 14:4
1 Corinthians 1:18, 2:14, 3:20-21, 10:13, 15:21-22
2 Corinthians 1:9, 2:14, 4:8-9, 4:14, 9:8
Galatians 3:22
Ephesians 2:1-4, 2:12, 4:17-19
Colossians 1:21, 2:13
Philippians 1:6, 2:13
2 Thessalonians 2:9-12
Titus 1:15
Hebrews 11:6
James 1:14-17, 4:17
2 Timothy 4:3-4
2 Peter 2:13-19
1 John 1:8, 2:16

 2007/8/9 6:58









 Re: Basic Scripture Texts (Total Depravity)

I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?

 2007/8/9 7:01
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?



Same here.


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/9 8:13Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Ormly wrote:
I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?

me too. like i've said before. i can see that natural man would not choose Christ on his own, but with the conviction of the Holy Spirit and revelation of God, i believe that he could choose to "accept Christ" and pray that God would fill him with His Spirit. i don't see anything in those verses that tell me different. just my thoughts.

 2007/8/9 8:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
Quote:
Ormly wrote:
I'm still looking for one that says he was. Did I miss it somewhere?

me too. like i've said before. i can see that natural man would not choose Christ on his own, but with the conviction of the Holy Spirit and revelation of God, i believe that he could choose to "accept Christ" and pray that God would fill him with His Spirit.



Question: Why wouldn't/couldn't one be converted to Christ for salvation, [I don't believe conversion is synomynous with "begotten again" 1Pet.1.3]since rational thinking can accomplish this? To be "born again" is to be chosen by God. Ergo, it is not something man benefits from by reciting a sinners prayer. Can you see that?

 2007/8/9 9:12
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: Basic Scripture Texts (Total Depravity)

[b]Romans 7:22-23[/b] [color=990000]For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
[b]23:[/b] But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.[/color]

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.

 2007/8/9 9:15Profile
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Question: Why wouldn't/couldn't one be converted to Christ for salvation, [I don't believe conversion is synomynous with "begotten again" 1Pet.1.3]since rational thinking can accomplish this? To be "born again" is to be chosen by God. Ergo, it is not something man benefits from by reciting a sinners prayer. Can you see that?

brother ormly, what is the difference between conversion and being born again?? i have only heard them being one and the same. you believe one could be converted and yet not born again? please explain this to me, i have never heard that.


 2007/8/9 9:27Profile









 Re:

I believe that what accompanies the new birth experience is the revelation of Jesus Christ. I believe it and He is the sustaining message of the gospel, the sustaining message now being a personality and not simply a doctrine to be argued out. I believe the choosing by God and the revelation of Jesus Christ, are synomynous. Intimacy with the Father now becomes the quest because of the new Nature deposited within the newly one chosen. Do you know many with such a quest?

"Many are called, few are chosen". Ever wonder why? I have. I believe many come to Christ, even by invitation, but desiring Him on their terms. A simple sinners prayer is usually sufficient for the one who is looking only for the benefits. "But when the king came in to see the guests, he saw a man there who did not have on a wedding garment. So he said to him, 'Friend, how did you come in here without a wedding garment?' And he was speechless." Matthew 22:11-12 (NKJV)

 2007/8/9 9:57
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Quote:
by Logic on 2007/8/10 0:15:42

Romans 7:22-23 For I delight in the requirements of God according to my true self.
23: But then, I see different set of requirements, and they are in my members, warring against the standard of my moral conscience, and bringing me into captivity to those requirements of my own fleshly desires which are in my members.

If Paul, before he was saved, delighted in the Law of God according to his "inward man" and war with the Law God with the "law of his mind" this would prove "Total Depravity" to be false.



7What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, "You shall not covet." 8But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. Apart from the law, sin lies dead. 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. 10The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. 11For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. 14For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 21So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Romans 7:7-25

In this case, The Law gives Paul's concience a standard beyond his own fallen self-righteouness, one that is divine in nature. This immediately creates a conflict between his soul which delights in the Moral Law now that it is no longer a source of condemnation for sin having been rescued from Radical Corruption, and the flesh which still yearns for the sinful nature to be expressed. The law, serving as the Holy Spirit's chosen medium in the process of regeneration to bring about the revealation of "sin, righteousness and the judgment to come", leads an unsaved person to the cross, yet it also leads the believer back as they use it to examine themselves to see the need for the savior.

As we mature in Him, this need arising from a greater revelation of our complete sinfulness becomes more and more apparent, as does the realisation of Christ's saving grace that follows.


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/8/9 10:08Profile
intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Proverbs 20:9
Who can say, "I have made my heart pure;
I am clean from my sin"?

Ecclesiastes 7:20
Surely there is not a righteous man on earth who does good and never sins.

Ecclesiastes 9:3
This is an evil in all that is done under the sun, that(A) the same event happens to all. Also, the hearts of the children of man are full of evil, and madness is in their hearts while they live, and after that they go to the dead.

Mark 7:21-23
For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, coveting, wickedness, deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.

Romans 7:18
For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out.

Romans 8:5-9
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. 7For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. 8Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

Titus 3:3
For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another.


Quote:
by Ormly on 2007/8/10 0:12:11

Question: Why wouldn't/couldn't one be converted to Christ for salvation, [I don't believe conversion is synomynous with "begotten again" 1Pet.1.3]since rational thinking can accomplish this? To be "born again" is to be chosen by God. Ergo, it is not something man benefits from by reciting a sinners prayer. Can you see that?



Nowhere in scripture does it say or demonstrate than man has been or is saved by the act of prayer, recited or otherwise. If such were possible, it would be works-based salvation on man's part rather than the grace of God.


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/8/9 10:09Profile





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