SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Finite Perfection vs. Infinite Perfection

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 Next Page )
PosterThread
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3698
Ca.

 Re:

Peter was not given what Paul was given. You won't hear Peter speak of Christ in you until his last epistle. The reason Paul confronted Peter, he was living and worshiping with the Gentile Christians and when the bus form Jerusalem drove up, he went to the Law keepers immediately and Paul confronted him for this reason. Paul had been given Christ in you and the Cross, Him crucified and rebirthed in the believer. That is another person was in Paul and it was Christ. Peter did not understand this until the years later in his epistles he said: 1 Peter 1:18-24 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: Peter learned from Paul the born again experience, that is Christ in you the Hope of Glory. He also said these things were hard to understand. 2 Peter 3:12-18 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness. But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

These things today are hard to understand, even those that have been born again don't know that they have a new person living in them, It is the Spirit of Christ. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. What are we to do now that this Christ is in us. Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Paul was the only one that was given this revelation, and it being direct from Jesus Christ Himself.

Rom 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rom 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

2Ti 2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel.

Peter never mentioned The cross or Christ in him in Acts. Paul was the first one to bring this to the Body of Christ in 1 Thess, his first epistle. Then in all his epistles. Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.


In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/8/10 5:18Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
Jesse,

In order to answer your questions correctly I need to get a better understanding of where you are coming from. Please answer the following question with just a simple yes or no.

1. There is no unknown area of or in my life where I fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc thus I am perfect having the same level of perfection as Jesus both known and unknown in thought, word, deed, action, motive, faith, and love.

Yes or No

2. I realize that I fall short and miss the mark in unkonwn areas of my life that God has yet to put His finger on that fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus etc, etc, etc, etc thus I am not perefect in the sense and comparison to the perfection of Jesus Chrsit and I am a life long and even an eternal work in progreess in this regard.

Yes or No

3. Is falling short or missing the mark one of the Biblical definitions for sin.

Yes or No



Jesse - Can you at least answer just these three question? I would like to answer your questions, but I really need to know where you are coming from first.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/10 14:11Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re: Finite Perfection vs. Infinite Perfection

Quote:
I don't believe sin will be in Heaven but neither do I believe that we will ever be infinitely perfect.

We are finite and can have nothing other then finite perfection. And God requires from finite creatures nothing other then finite perfection.



hmmm... not a whole lot of scripture used for the statements you made. does the bible even address this?

*Edit: added context*

 2007/8/10 16:57Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Quote:
Perfection of finite beings is really being 'fit for purpose'. In this sense a child may be perfect yet with room for growth and development. The same is true in the spiritual realm.



:) Amen Brother!

*edit: added context*

 2007/8/10 16:58Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Quote:
Is he able to keep me from falling? Is he able to save me to the uttermost? Is he able to make all grace abound towards me? Is he able to make me a partaker of his divine nature? Is he able to give me all things that pertain to life and godliness?



Hallelujah! What a Saviour!

He is able! Praise Jesus! :-D

 2007/8/10 17:01Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I thought it would be profitable to see how the Bible builds its definition of the word 'perfect'. Webers is of very little value to a Bible student. Earthly concepts are in constant flux but God has given us an unchanging pattern of use and expectation.

[color=0033FF]Gen. 6:9 (KJVS) These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Gen. 17:1 (KJVS) And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Lev. 22:21 (KJVS) And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a freewill offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Deut. 18:13 (KJVS) Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Deut. 25:15 (KJVS) But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

Deut. 32:4 (KJVS) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

1Sam. 14:41 (KJVS) Therefore Saul said unto the LORD God of Israel, Give a perfect lot. And Saul and Jonathan were taken: but the people escaped.

2Sam. 22:31 (KJVS) As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him.[/color]

Already the sense of the word is emerging. The Hebrew word "tamiym" is usually translated 'without blemish' and is scattered throughout the OT; Gen 6:9; 17:1; Ex 12:5; 29:1; Lev 1:3, 10; 3:1, 6, 9; 4:3, 23, 28, 32; 5:15, 18; 6:6; 9:2-3; 14:10; 22:19, 21; 23:12, 15, 18; 25:30; Num 6:14; 19:2; 28:3, 9, 11, 19, 31; 29:2, 8, 13, 17, 20, 23, 26, 29, 32, 36; Deut 18:13; 32:4; Josh 10:13; 24:14; Judg 9:16, 19; 1Sam 14:41; 2Sam 22:24, 26, 31, 33; Job 12:4; 36:4; 37:16; Psa 15:2; 18:23, 25, 30, 32; 19:7; 37:18; 84:11; 101:2, 6; 119:1, 80; Prov 1:12; 2:21; 11:5, 20; 28:10, 18; Ezek 15:5; 28:15; 43:22-23, 25; 45:18, 23; 46:4, 6, 13; Amos 5:10. It derives from the word "tamam" which means complete.

In this sense it is a very has a telling Greek equivalent in the ideas of 'teleios' which also has a sense of 'completeness' about it.

It is significant that many individuals in the OT are said to be, or expected to be, 'perfect'. Noah, Abraham, David, Asa, David's warriors, Solomon, Job... When we think of these men it becomes clear that we need to understand how God is using the word 'perfect'.

Another word for 'perfect' in the OT is derived from Shalom, peace. It does not signify absence of war but everything being in its right place and order; wholeness.

We may have to constantly redefine the word 'perfect' in our preaching to ensure that the listener understands that we are using the word as God uses it rather than as Webers. Nevertheless to abandon the word is an abdication of one of the central truths of the gospel, namely that Christ did not only die to save us from the consequence of our sin but that through the gift of His Spirit we might be changed into his image.

That change is, indeed, progressive... from glory to glory. But regeneration restores the glory of God in the nature of man and from there he is expected to go from grace to grace, faith to faith, glory to glory.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/8/11 1:15Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
We may have to constantly redefine the word 'perfect' in our preaching to ensure that the listener understands that we are using the word as God uses it rather than as Webers.



If you are using the perfect and THOROUGHLY explaining the the Biblical use of the word in contrast to Webster's and common societal use of the word - then I have no problem. I also have no problem explaining and preaching as you put it "one of the central truths of the gospel" without using the word and avoiding myriads of confusion and debate - either way is fine with me as long the Biblical use is being used and explained. The real problem is and I know that is shocking, but there are many, even here on Sermonindex who are not using the Biblical definition at all but rather even a hyper form of Webster's definition. This error is what needs to be brought out and correct for two reasons 1. It take the focus off Jesus and puts it on an impossible doctrine 2. It ruins peoples faith and brings them under self-righteousness, spiritual pride, judgmentalism and condemnation.

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/11 2:48Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

So, as Campbell Morgan once, said... "I believe in perfection; I certainly don't believe in imperfection."

I believe that lambs could be perfect for sacrifice, that Noah was perfect in his genealogy, that God expected Abraham to be perfect. I believe that God is perfect, and that angels are perfect and that saints may be perfect saints.

I don't believe that lambs can be perfect saints, and I don't believe that saints can be perfect angels, and I don't believe that angels can be perfect in divinity. The word has to be used in its context and the context has to be explained, but the word must not be abandoned. In the face of constant failure and disappointment let God be true and lets not be afraid to say what God expects he can achieve.

[color=0033FF]Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. (Hebrews 13:20-21 KJVS)[/color]


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/8/11 3:50Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Quote:
The word has to be used in its context and the context has to be explained, but the word must not be abandoned.



I guess we will have to disagree - Like I said I have no problem if someone is using the word correctly and THOROUGHLY explaining what they mean when using the word - but in most cases it should be abandon because it causes too much misunderstanding, confusion and problems, as you yourself said -

"Am I able to walk perfectly on earth? Wrong question! and one that can only cause friction."

There are many cases where the word should be abandon as in the question you posed in the above quote.

I am not at all afraid to say what God expects we can achive and explaining and preaching it quite thoroughly and clearly without using words that cause misunderstanding, friction and confusion.

Quote:
In the face of constant failure and disappointment let God be true and lets not be afraid to say what God expects we can achieve.



amen! Amen!! & AMEN!!! :-) :-) :-) :-)

Just preach the truth and explain it clearly and you can use whatever word you like. :-) ;-) :-) ;-)

Patrick
www.revialarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/11 4:43Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
In the face of constant failure and disappointment let God be true and lets not be afraid to say what God expects we can achieve.



Actually I have a typing error in here. I had intended to write..."what God expects He can achieve".


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/8/11 4:53Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Privacy Policy