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 Finite Perfection vs. Infinite Perfection

This is from a different discussion which I thought was such an important point, it would be good to make a new thread about it.

Someone said:

Quote:
Anything that falls short of the infinite, perfection, faith and Glory of God is, according to Scripture, sin



You are saying that if a [i][u]finite[/i][/u] creature does anything short of [i][u]infinite[/i][/u] perfection, it is sin.

1. Do you think anyone will ever be infinitely perfect like God is infinitely perfect?

Will you be infinitely perfect in heaven, as God is infinitely perfect?

2. And do you think that a finite creature who fails to be infinitely perfect is sinning?

3. And if, even in Heaven, we will not be infinitely perfect as God is infinitely perfect, would you say that God allows sin into Heaven?

According to you, we either must become infinitely perfect as God is before going to Heaven, or else God let's sin into Heaven.

I don't believe sin will be in Heaven but neither do I believe that we will ever be infinitely perfect.

[b]We are finite and can have nothing other then finite perfection.[/b] And God requires from finite creatures nothing other then finite perfection.

------------------------------

You are basically saying that it is a sin to be finite, because by being finite we fail to be infinite.

But did God not make us finite?

And if God made us finite, and it's a sin to be finite, are you not charging God with making sin?

 2007/8/8 18:42
sojourner7
Member



Joined: 2007/6/27
Posts: 1573
Omaha, NE

 Re: Finite Perfection vs. Infinite Perfection

Perfection in the Greek refers to being
complete, made sound and whole. True,
we are limited in our knowledge and our
comprehension of God's purposes and will
for us. But by His Holy Spirit He is
working to complete us and perfect us in
the likeness of His Son. :-D


_________________
Martin G. Smith

 2007/8/8 19:50Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3697
Ca.

 Re:

Is Christ finite?

Is Christ in you?

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

The Christ in us is infinite and that make us infinite, by His work on the Cross and By the Fathers Seed birthed in us.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/8/9 3:56Profile
Christisking
Member



Joined: 2005/7/20
Posts: 672
Los Angeles, California

 Re:

Perfect is perfect - to me finite perfect is a contradiction. If it not infinitely or completely perfect then it is not perfect. It is like saying that it is just kind of perfect or that it is partially perfect - it makes no sense.

The point that I was making is that sanctification is a process that will continue your whole life because there will always be unknown areas of your life were you fall short of the infinitely perfect love, faith, patients, mercy, humility, etc. of Jesus Christ - and yes falling short or missing the mark is sin by it's very definition. I had a brother tell me recently "well I don't call that sin" I answered him by saying "when God reveals those areas and puts His finger on the such things do you need to repent of where you have fallen short and missed the mark and if you continue to blatantly fall short and miss the mark then are you on your way to hell?" He answered "yes you have to repent and turn when God shows you were you have fallen short and if you don't then you are on your way to hell" I think it was painfully clear how silly it was to not call such things sin. But this brother couldn't call such things either sin or in-perfections because if he did then his whole theology would start to fall apart - he had to call them mistakes. I told him "if it is missing the mark or falling short and you have to repent and turn from it then the Bible calls it sin and I am going to call it sin"

I am sure you are aware that there are areas in you life that the Lord has not reveled to you yet where you fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. I am also reasonably sure you would agree when the Lord reveals these areas to you then you must repent and turn from them. Know I don't care if you call it sin or not - it doesn't matter to me what you call it as long as you agree that:

1. You have unknown areas in your life where you fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. thus you are not perfect.

2. When the Lord shows you these area of in-perfection in your life where you miss the mark or fall short of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. you must repent and turn from what ever it is that the Lord shows you.

If you can at very least agree upon these two simple points then I don't care what you call it or what terminology you use. You can piddle over words and definitions if you want but have no desire to do so. Can you at least agree with these two simple points?

Patrick
www.revivalarmy.com


_________________
Patrick Ersig

 2007/8/9 5:15Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
Perfect is perfect - to me finite perfect is a contradiction. If it not infinitely or completely perfect then it is not perfect. It is like saying that it is just kind of perfect or that it is partially perfect - it makes no sense.



By definition, perfect does not mean "infinitely perfect" otherwise the word would only ever apply to God. How many times have you heard the word perfect used in your life?

In a sport: "That was a [i]perfect[/i] play!"
At work: "That procedure worked [i]perfectly[/i]!"
In a board-game: "I've [i]perfected[/i] my strategy!"

These are all proper uses of the word. You don't have to be perfect in every area to be perfect in some areas.

Therefore we say that we are perfect [i]in holiness[/i]. We are entirely set apart for God with nothing held back.
We say that we are perfect [i]in righteousness[/i]. In all matters of righteousness (of which their is one: love) we are perfect, lacking nothing.

It is very silly to say that God requires, for instance, perfection [i]in mathematics[/i]. It is no sin if you are not skilled at calculus or other higher math. This seems to be, in essence, what has been said: if someone makes a mistake on a math problem, they are sinning.

Quote:
1. You have unknown areas in your life where you fall short or miss the mark of the perfect love of Jesus or the perfect faith of Jesus or the perfect humility of Jesus or the perfect patients of Jesus ect, etc, etc, etc. thus you are not perfect.



I for one disagree with this. Love fulfills the law; if you have love, you lack nothing.
If you love God with all you heart, and love your neighbor as yourself, then you lack nothing.
If I am full of love, I have no "hidden areas of sin". Did Jesus have any "unknown areas of sin"? No! Then need we? No! For the life of Christ is made manifest in me!


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/9 8:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If I am full of love, I have no "hidden areas of sin". Did Jesus have any "unknown areas of sin"? No! Then need we? No! For the life of Christ is made manifest in me!



You have just qualified yourself for religous pride and being handed over to a reprobate mind... when a messenger of God comes to you one days and points out a secret area in your life or a root of something that needs to be dealt with you can simply reply "I have no unknown areas of sin in my life"... I seem to remember another group of religous people who lived that way.

Perfecting holiness in fear of the Lord (and walking in no known, willfull, continual, or deliberate sin)

- Jim

 2007/8/9 8:52
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
You have just qualified yourself for religous pride and being handed over to a reprobate mind... when a messenger of God comes to you one days and points out a secret area in your life or a root of something that needs to be dealt with you can simply reply "I have no unknown areas of sin in my life"... I seem to remember another group of religous people who lived that way.



Jim, I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. I also fear you have constructed a straw man argument.

If a prophet shows me a sin I need to repent of, I would not say, "I have no unkown sin."
Rather I would repent and mourn that I have deceived myself for so long by saying, "I know God" for no one can know God if they continue in sin.

I hope you see the truth of this - it is all throughout the New Testament.

Quote:
Perfecting holiness in fear of the Lord (and walking in no known, willfull, continual, or deliberate sin)



How can someone walk in unkonwn and unwillfuly sin? It is not sin if it is unkonwn and unwillful.

"If our conscience does not condemn us we have confidence before God."

Nile


_________________
Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/8/9 10:15Profile









 Re:

The standard we are judged by is the law of love. Love is the law.

We are to love God "with all thy" and love our neighbor as ourself. There is nothing in those commandments that are above our ability, since we are never judged beyond our ability, we are only reasonable for which is "all thy".

God expects and requires from each individual exactly as much as that individual is capable of, no more and no less - "with all thy" the commandment says.

-------------
Patrick,

If you could, I would like to understand your full reasoning better. Can you answer these questions:

You are saying that if a finite creature does anything short of infinite perfection, it is sin.

1. Do you think anyone will ever be infinitely perfect like God is infinitely perfect?

Will you be infinitely perfect in heaven, as God is infinitely perfect?

2. And do you think that a finite creature who fails to be infinitely perfect is sinning?

3. And if, even in Heaven, we will not be infinitely perfect as God is infinitely perfect, would you say that God allows sin into Heaven?

According to you, we either must become infinitely perfect as God is before going to Heaven, or else God let's sin into Heaven.

I don't believe sin will be in Heaven but neither do I believe that we will ever be infinitely perfect.

We are finite and can have nothing other then finite perfection. And God requires from finite creatures nothing other then finite perfection.

You are basically saying that it is a sin to be finite, because by being finite we fail to be infinite.

1. But did God not make us finite?

2. And if God made us finite, and it's a sin to be finite, are you not charging God with making sin?

 2007/8/9 10:43









 Re:

Quote:
Jim, I understand what you are saying, but I disagree. I also fear you have constructed a straw man argument.



I dont believe so bro, here's why

Quote:
If a prophet shows me a sin I need to repent of, I would not say, "I have no unkown sin."Rather I would repent and mourn that I have deceived myself for so long by saying, "I know God" for no one can know God if they continue in sin..



According to this reasoning Peter did not know God...

Galatians 2:11When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. 13The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.
14When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?

Quote:

I hope you see the truth of this - it is all throughout the New Testament.



Hebrew 10 speaks of willfully sinning, why is there a qualifier to sinning, that is willfully or deliberately. That is a line of seperation between mercy and wrath, life and death, the saint and the hypocrite.

Quote:

How can someone walk in unkonwn and unwillfuly sin? It is not sin if it is unkonwn and unwillful.



Again, was Peters sin known to him before Paul opposed him to his face?

1 Peter 4:8Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

sins = hamartia the same word used to say that Jesus will save His people from their sin. 1 Peter 4 in context is speaking of relationships between believers. So the believers therefor need to love each other to cover their weaknesses and faults, those in trait or character that are unknown or unwillful. We know Peter is not speaking of willful committing of sin because this would contradict 1 John 3 and Hebrews 10. Yet he still calls it sin/offence.

Look forward to hearing more from you guys on this.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/8/9 11:21
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

[color=000099]Phl 3:12 [b]Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected;[/b] but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
Phl 3:13 Brethren, [b]I do not count myself to have apprehended;[/b] but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
Phl 3:14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Phl 3:15 [b]Therefore let us, as many as are [i]mature,[/i] have this mind; [i]and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you.[/i][/b]
Phl 3:16 Nevertheless, to the [b]degree[/b] that we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us be of the same mind.


Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Gal 2:21 [b]"I do not set aside the [i]grace of God;[/i][/b] for if righteousness comes through the law, [i]then Christ died in vain."[/i]


1Jo 1:8 [b]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/b]
1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 1:10 [b]If we say that we have not sinned, [i]we make Him a liar,[/i] and His word is not in us.[/b]


2 Cor 3:18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are [b][i]being[/i] transformed[/b] into the same image [b][i]from[/i] glory [i]to[/i] glory,[/b] just as by the Spirit of the Lord.


Rom 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God.
Rom 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness."
Rom 4:4 [b]Now to him who works, [i]the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.[/i]
Rom 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, [i]his faith[/i] is accounted for righteousness,[/b]
Rom 4:6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
Rom 4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered;
Rom 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin."


Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Eph 1:5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Eph 1:6 [b]to the praise of the glory of His [i]grace,[/i] by which He made us [i]accepted[/i] in the Beloved.[/b]
Eph 1:7 [b]In Him we have redemption [i]through His blood,[/i] the forgiveness of sins, according to the [i]riches of His grace[/i][/b]
Eph 1:8 which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence,
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him.
Eph 1:11 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 [b]In Him you also [i]trusted,[/i][/b] after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, [b]having [i]believed,[/i] you were [i]sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,[/i][/b]
Eph 1:14 who is the [b][i]guarantee[/i] of our inheritance[/b] until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.


Eph 2:8 [b]For [i]by grace[/i] you have been saved [i]through faith,[/i] and that not of yourselves; it is the [i]gift of God,[/i][/b]
Eph 2:9 [b]not of [i]works,[/i] lest anyone should [i]boast.[/i][/b]


Col 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:4 since we heard of your [b]faith in Christ Jesus[/b] and of your love for all the saints;
Col 1:5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, of which you heard before in the word of the [b]truth of the [i]gospel,[/i][/b]
Col 1:6 which has come to you, as it has also in all the world, and is bringing forth fruit, as it is also among you since the day you heard and [b]knew the [i]grace of God[/i] in truth.[/b]


Hbr 4:9 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God.
Hbr 4:10 For [b]he who has entered His rest has himself also [i]ceased from his works[/i][/b] as God did from His.
Hbr 4:11 [b]Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of [i]disobedience.[/i][/b]
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Hbr 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Hbr 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, [b]let us hold fast our [i]confession.[/i][/b]
Hbr 4:15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin.
Hbr 4:16 [b]Let us therefore come boldly to the [i]throne of grace,[/i] that we may [i]obtain mercy[/i] and find [i]grace[/i] to help in time of need.[/b]


Hbr 12:3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls.
Hbr 12:4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, [b]striving against sin.[/b]
Hbr 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
"My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
Hbr 12:6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives."
Hbr 12:7 Ifyou endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten?
Hbr 12:8 But [b]if you are [i]without chastening,[/i] of which all have become partakers, then you are [i]illegitimate[/i] and not sons.[/b]


Gal 1:6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you [b]in the [i]grace[/i] of Christ,[/b] to a different gospel,
Gal 1:7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 [i]But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, [b]let him be accursed.[/b][/i]
Gal 1:9 As we have said before, so now [i]I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, [b]let him be accursed.[/b][/i] [/color]


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/8/9 13:02Profile





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