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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Moral Character = Intention

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Mt 12:35 - "A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."



And the question would be, who has a good heart? Who of his own free will and natural birth has a good heart that loves God and his neighbor.

Jesse your view is dangerous in that has no need of the Spirit's regenerating of a heart. If man can will himself to be good, then why a re-birth by the Spirit?

If the flesh can do something profitable, why would Jesus make the point that the flesh is profitable for nothing, and also that which is born flesh remains flesh, but it is the Spirit that gives life.

This view also does not need the mediatorial role of Christ as man's standing is completely based upon his adherence to the moral law, and therefore man and man alone must keep himself in God's favour.

Actually if you follow this line of thinking to its logical end, man can be his own redeemer so long as he can just make his heart good enough by his actions, and you would not even need a redeemer from sins, but just an example to follow.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/8/8 18:29Profile









 Re:

Haven't you read any of my posts on the bibles doctrine of synergy?

* Jesus has given us an "example" as to how we should live - John 13:15

* The grace teaches us to live holy and to deny sin - Titus 2:11

* God calls us to repent - Acts 17:30

* the Spirit convicts us of sin - John 16:8

* and the instrument used in setting us free is truth - John 8:32.

* But we ourselves need to voluntarily repent (cleanse ourselves) - James 4:8; we ourselves need to voluntarily obey the truth (thus purify our souls)1Pet 1:22.

Jesus, God, the Spirit, the Truth, God's grace, and freewill have a role in a sinner turning from sin (being cleansed from sin).

Jesus gave us an example, we must follow. God calls, we must obey. Grace teaches, we must listen. The Spirit convicts, we must yeild. Truth reveals, we must believe. And repentance is an act that we ourselves do, (it is not forced) and repentance is brought about by Jesus - God - Grace - Spirit - Truth.

These all influence us to repent (turn from sin, cleanse ourselves) and we ourselves must yeild to or obey that influence.

And if we do this, if we obey by repenting, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin - 1John 1:7 - that is, the blood of Jesus Christ justifies us, God pardons us because of Christ's blood upon condition of repentance - Luke 13:3

Justification by the blood (cleansed from all sin) is upon condition of our own repentance, which is brought about by Jesus - God - Grace - Spirit - Truth. The blood cleanses (justifies) those who "walk in the light" and who "confess" their sin - 1John 1:7, 1:9

So we must repent and then the blood justifies us.

----------------------

I would argue that your belief is dangerous. If you believe that the will is not free, and regeneration therefore needs to be forced, the only way that you can account for the fact that not everyone is regenerated and saved is (not because of freewill) but because God wants the majority of the world to live in sin, die in sin, and go to hell for their unavoidable sin.

In your view, God is willing that the majority should perish and not repent; that God wills that multitudes continue to sin instead of repent.

 2007/8/8 18:39
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Synergism is not a Scriptural idea at all, and this is proven simply by the words of Christ here
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Here is what "draw" means in Greek
helkuō / helkō
Thayer Definition:
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel

God never does this against the will of man, but rather He changes the man's will so he is willing. This is the new birth which produces repentance, and faith.

So is salvation dependent upon our righteousness, or Christ's?

Whose work opens the way to Heaven for us?

Also, since when has God delighted in men perishing? Is not the whole of man equally damned to begin with, and thus He is under no obligation at all to save any?

What would you say to this-
Christ death has made a way possible for salvation, but it is only appropriated by our obedience.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/8 20:27Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Jesse,

How do you interpret the phrase "the law of sin which is in my members. " from Romans 7:23?


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/8/9 0:16Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Jesse,

How do you interpret the phrase "the law of sin which is in my members. " from Romans 7:23?



I think it means that your flesh (your body) has lusts or cravings for gratification (sin).

A drug baby has cravings for drugs. The law of sin is in it's members, or you could say the cravings for sin (drugs) is in it's body.

Temptation comes from lust. Each man is tempted by his own lust. But sin is when freewill voluntarily yeilds to that lust.

Our physical lusts can be called physical depravity. We are born physically depraved with a bias towards sin because of those physical lusts. Those physical lusts are temptation, not sin. So we are born with the law of sin in our members, influencing our wills to commit sin.

--------------

Roaringlamb, the bible also says "If I be lifted up, I will DRAW ALL MEN unto myself".

And God sends the Holy Spirit to convict all men, to strive with man, but men must voluntarily yield to that influence - to that drawing.

When I preach open air, I draw in crowds. I do my part in influencing them to come, and they do their part to voluntarily come of their own freewill.

 2007/8/9 1:48
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
If I be lifted up, I will DRAW ALL MEN unto myself



Then either this means all men come to Christ, or this means all types of men, and not just the Jewish people, or that though all men are drawn some are saved while most are repulsed.

Only two of the three are realistic.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/8/9 2:26Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I think it means that your flesh (your body) has lusts or cravings for gratification (sin).



Well, if this is the case how can Paul still be in a physical body and proclaim that he was freed from the law of sin?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/8/9 11:35Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Quote:
Well, if this is the case how can Paul still be in a physical body and proclaim that he was freed from the law of sin?

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.



I believe Josh has made an excellent point. If the definition of "the law of sin" is simply cravings of the flesh then Paul would essentially be saying he is totally free from even temptation itself, which according to James 1:14 comes from the flesh.

Romans 7 shows clearly that the will alone is not enough to overcome sin. Paul wanted to do good but he could not. He did not want to do evil but that is what he did. Therefore even the will is in bondage until Jesus Christ sets you free.


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Eli Brayley

 2007/8/9 15:02Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
PreachParsly wrote:
Jesse,

How do you interpret the phrase "the law of sin which is in my members. " from Romans 7:23?

The ''law of sin'' is the dictates or the controling factors of my own fleshly desires that make me inclined to oppose God to be separated from Him.

Therefore, the demands of my own fleshly desires separates me fom God which is spiritual death ''the penalty of sin is death''.
Therefore, that which is in our ''members'' is death.
The next verse proves this point.

 2007/8/9 15:07Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
The ''law of sin'' is the dictates or the controling factors of my own fleshly desires that make me inclined to oppose God to be separated from Him.

Therefore, the demands of my own fleshly desires separates me fom God which is spiritual death ''the penalty of sin is death''.
Therefore, that which is in our ''members'' is death.
The next verse proves this point.



I'm not real sure I follow you. Can you elaborate some? It seems like your making some logic statments (hence your name!) but I'm not able to follow.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/8/9 21:54Profile





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