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killertonedotcom
Member



Joined: 2004/5/4
Posts: 6


 Re:

Quote:
Because God has blessed you financially, and you can't get rid of it fast enough?



I sense a tone of ridicule in that...but I think I know what you mean. In a way, YES! When single, I was free to give generously--for I alone had earned it. In marriage, if two have different convictions--how can the one who makes so little give away all the stuff! I am not the kind who demands submission! I would trade all "the stuff"--to have my faith back...but it seems like it is impossible.

Quote:
...He chose mercy for those that would believe



That is not Calvinistic...RIGHT? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it this way:
Quote:
...He chose belief for those on whom he would have mercy (my quote)



I am not really arguing...I know all the arguments you are making...I just can't believe them anymore---because of this 'sifting'. The heavens seem silent. How I wish the Bible were more 'water tight'--so that I could gain encouragement from reading it.

Right around here people like to accuse me of arguing with and blaming God. And that just feeds into the confusion (am I not allowed to have the Bible make sense in my head? Job argued with God--kind of.) I value your prayers--I mean REALLY pray if you REALLY believe that it can make a difference for me. After all, couldn't I be that "dead man" who can't hear the voice of God until God raises him from the dead?

Peace to you all!!!

 2004/5/4 17:45Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:

Quote:
Because God has blessed you financially, and you can't get rid of it fast enough?


I sense a tone of ridicule in that...

I'm sorry, I didn't mean it that way at all. I was just so surprised to find someone seemingly in that situation.

Quote:
but I think I know what you mean. In a way, YES! When single, I was free to give generously--for I alone had earned it. In marriage, if two have different convictions--how can the one who makes so little give away all the stuff!

Does our money ever belong to us, in the true sense? No, it's all God's. We "earn" it in the sense that we do work or sell things and people give us money, so that money is more ours than any other human's on this earth, but everything we have (including our very selves) belongs to God if we are His children. I understand how you feel about giving away other people's money, though. How does your wife feel the money should be used?

Quote:
Quote:
...He chose mercy for those that would believe


That is not Calvinistic...RIGHT? Wouldn't it be more accurate to say it this way:
Quote:
...He chose belief for those on whom he would have mercy (my quote)


I think a Calvinist (the kind I know, 5-pointers, not hyper-Calvinists) would put it either way, although if they say the first there is an understood implication that those that believe do so only by God's sovereign and irresistable grace.

Quote:
I am not really arguing...I know all the arguments you are making...I just can't believe them anymore---because of this 'sifting'. The heavens seem silent. How I wish the Bible were more 'water tight'--so that I could gain encouragement from reading it.

I think we've established pretty firmly from Scripture that God doesn't expect every Christian to give away every last dime as soon as they get it. If your faith is wavering, seek God in prayer and search His Word. We'll gladly help however we can (prayer, definately), but your relationship with God is (by definition) between you and Him.

Quote:
Right around here people like to accuse me of arguing with and blaming God. And that just feeds into the confusion (am I not allowed to have the Bible make sense in my head? Job argued with God--kind of.)

I've no intention of accusing you, speak (or, rather, type) what is on your heart, without fear of what we might think, for if we are truly your Brothers and Sisters we will not turn our backs on you for honestly struggling. The Bible can indeed make sense to us, and it ought. The idea that theology cannot be reasonable is very dangerous. We shouldn't expect to understand it all (God being infinite and such) but we can expect that it be consistent and helpful rather than arbitrary and exasperating.

Quote:
I value your prayers--I mean REALLY pray if you REALLY believe that it can make a difference for me.

James 5
13 Is any among you affliced? Let him pray. Is any merry? Let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord.
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up. And if he has committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. [b]The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.[/b]

I'd continue, but I don't know what else to say. I've also been awake for something like 30-35 hours.

God's grace be with you in our Lord Jesus Christ,
-Keith

 2004/5/4 18:55Profile
Gideons
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 474
Virginia

 Re: Belief equals obedience

There are some meaty thoughts on this thread and I thought I would add my two cents worth.

The Greek word that's used for faith is the also used as a verb, to believe (i.e. pisteuo and I've also seen the word pistos). (I defer to our Greek scholars for a more thorough definition.)

Our obedience is based on strictly on our belief in God. If we truly believe God, then we'll act accordingly. This belief is actually more like "continually believing" God. It's not a one time occurrence but it's an ongoing day-by-day (oftentimes a moment by moment walk with God).


Quote:
Romans 4:21 AMP Fully satisfied and assured that God was able and mighty to keep His word and to do what He had promised.

Since His word says "Be ye holy for am I holy" (I Peter 1:15 we can be holy because we believe He can change us and make us holy. It's His work and not our own but we have to make this choice to follow Him and seek Him.

On the other hand, if we have unbelief in our hearts, we'll have a false kind of faith (i.e. unbelief) that we try to conjure up through our flesh. One of the primary fruits of unbelief is legalism.
Quote:
Romans 4:14If it is the adherents of the Law who are to be the heirs, then faith is made futile and empty of all meaning and the promise [of God] is made void (is annulled and has no power).



Only God can give us an obedient heart but if we truly seek Him, then surely He will do what He promised to do.

Although we can quickly recognize legalism for what it is (faith in ourselves versus faith in God), God wants us to have this find of faith in Him and Him alone. Once we allow Him to do this in us, obedience will naturally follow.

I would suggest reading all of Romans 4 as it talks a lot about faith and belief in Christ, which enables us to obey. Our obedience naturally flows from this "continually believing" in God. It truly is a supernatural thing and God wants all believers to have that.

I think many believers are afraid of legalism and so they equate legalism with obedience, which is a tragic mistake in my view.

Ed


_________________
Ed Pugh

 2004/5/4 19:31Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

Gideons, good thoughts, I'm in agreement with that, it's all God's awesome, wonderful, loving grace that gives us an obedient and faithful heart.


_________________
Jina

 2004/5/5 3:19Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

RobertW writes "As soon as I read this the passage came to mind that says "where there is no vision the people perish." The actual Hebrew says "Where there is no prophetic unction the people cast off all restraint!"

Just back from Warsaw and taking a quick browse through the site. I think you're right RobertW in making clear that this verse has nothing to do with 'visions and mission statements' but I think the tranlsation of 'châzôn' as 'prophetic unction' is going too far. Although it is often used of the prophet's vision the emphasis is on the 'revealing' rather than the 'unction'. 'châzôn' is 'what is seen' or 'perceived' ie 'vision' or I prefer 'revelation'.

If we read the verse in context we can more readily see the topic under discussion, and it certainly is very relevant to our thread. Correct your son, and he will give you comfort; He will also delight your soul. Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained, But happy is he who keeps the law. A slave will not be instructed by words alone; For though he understands, there will be no response. (Pro 29:17-19 NASB) The writer knows that that relationship is the key to a particular kind of obedience. He expects a 'corrected' son to obey but knows that a servant will not receive 'correction' in his heart. Perhaps he knows that the response to correction is the real indicator of heart condition rather than than the letter of obedience. John Wesley used to distinguish between 'servile' and 'filial' obedience; outwardly they look the same but it is when the 'correction' comes that our response shows our nature.

The 18th verse shows what the writer has in mind when he refers to the 'happy keeper of the law'. Israel was the 'first born son' and God gave his law to his 'son'. This gave both privilege and responsibility to Israel. The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29 NASB) God had revealed his will to them... Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; (Rom 2:17-18 KJV) The secret things were still in God's keeping but what they knew they were held accountable for. The Gentiles had no such specific revelation and the consequence of that lack was that they 'perish' as the KJV translates it, are 'unrestrained' as in the NASB. Literally, they are made 'naked' or are 'uncovered'. The Good News Bible is not my favourite tranlsation but it often captures the flow well in its paraphrase; A nation without God's guidance is a nation without order. Happy are those who keep God's law! (Pro 29:18 GNB)Youngs Literal Tranlsation is quaint but powerful in its own way Without a Vision is a people made naked, And whoso is keeping the law, O his happiness! (Pro 29:18 YLT)

Ah, but some will say, we are no longer under the law. True, we are not under that law, but if we are true-born ...the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2 MKJV) Walking in the Spirit is 'obedience/faith' and only so can we pre-empt the 'fulfilling of the lusts of the flesh'.

The link between faith and obedience is a key one; each, faith and obedience, is dependent upon revelation. Each begins with God's 'revelation' of His will and requires response. When the 'revelation' comes we submit to it or we 'perish' (not eternally necessarily, but in that event), but he who guards the 'revelation' by embracing it in faith or obedience... O his happiness'.







_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/5/5 11:05Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Chanin, you wrote...
The Lord showed me last year that He did not want me to workout at a co-ed gym. Once I 'knew" that this was His will for me- I would have been disobeying if I continued to go.

Just yesterday the Lord drew my attention to the testimony of the Samaritans in John 4:42 And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world. (Joh 4:42 KJV)

I have come to the conclusion that it is only when I have heard Him personally that I know anything; the rest is theology and speculation. I am really only responsible for what I have heard from Him, not the 'good advice' of his servants. It's good to listen to the testimony of a Samarian woman, as they did, but it's only a first step. We need to hear Him ourselves; it's not just the words, it's the way He says them.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/5/5 11:15Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

This thread has been part of the provocation for this week's Devotional. Abraham, My Friend_22


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/5/6 11:37Profile
rocklife
Member



Joined: 2004/4/1
Posts: 323
usa

 Re:

Philologos said, "If we read the verse in context we can more readily see the topic under discussion, and it certainly is very relevant to our thread. Correct your son, and he will give you comfort; He will also delight your soul. Where there is no vision, the people are unrestrained, But happy is he who keeps the law. A slave will not be instructed by words alone; For though he understands, there will be no response. (Pro 29:17-19 NASB) The writer knows that that relationship is the key to a particular kind of obedience. He expects a 'corrected' son to obey but knows that a servant will not receive 'correction' in his heart. Perhaps he knows that the response to correction is the real indicator of heart condition rather than than the letter of obedience. John Wesley used to distinguish between 'servile' and 'filial' obedience; outwardly they look the same but it is when the 'correction' comes that our response shows our nature.

The 18th verse shows what the writer has in mind when he refers to the 'happy keeper of the law'. Israel was the 'first born son' and God gave his law to his 'son'. This gave both privilege and responsibility to Israel. The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law. (Deu 29:29 NASB) God had revealed his will to them... Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; (Rom 2:17-18 KJV) The secret things were still in God's keeping but what they knew they were held accountable for. The Gentiles had no such specific revelation and the consequence of that lack was that they 'perish' as the KJV translates it, are 'unrestrained' as in the NASB. Literally, they are made 'naked' or are 'uncovered'. The Good News Bible is not my favourite tranlsation but it often captures the flow well in its paraphrase; A nation without God's guidance is a nation without order. Happy are those who keep God's law! (Pro 29:18 GNB)Youngs Literal Tranlsation is quaint but powerful in its own way Without a Vision is a people made naked, And whoso is keeping the law, O his happiness! (Pro 29:18 YLT)

Ah, but some will say, we are no longer under the law. True, we are not under that law, but if we are true-born ...the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2 MKJV) Walking in the Spirit is 'obedience/faith' and only so can we pre-empt the 'fulfilling of the lusts of the flesh'. End Quote

Thanks for the comments, John Wesley's point also brings a little clarity!


_________________
Jina

 2004/5/14 15:28Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

As I re-look again at these passages I feel a sense that what is being said all fits together with what Ron and I and others point out and it is that of the relationship between the people and God.

If the son knows that the Father is keenly aware of the behavior and will in fact chasten him for his wrong it is a great detourant from sin when temptations arise.

So we see then that it IS the prophet's 'revelation' of the situation (as with Nathan revealing David's sin) and also the prophet's pronouncment of the Father's penalty for the sin that creates a precedence for future caution. God has a perfect track record of keeping His word.

David, as any real son would, cried out for the Father to change His mind on the one point, but God did not spare for His crying. The child died. The rest of the penalty was carried out as well. And because David was a son God forgave him of the transgression; but David still suffered years of chastisement.

AMOS 3:7... Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto His servants the prophets. The prophet simply delived an anointed message and David recognized that UNCTION. He as a son, would know the Father's voice anywhere. Like one writer said concerning the writing on the wall at Belshazzar's house... perhaps Daniel looked up and said "Sure I know that hand writing... that's my Father's hand writing."

Having a 'prophet' or a 'watchman' that knows the voice of God and with that the unction with which to power (energize- dunamis) the word given- will go a long way in keep the children walking in obedience. As God's prosecuting attorneys, they will thunder what the Lord has said, and as Samuel God will not allow one of their words to fall to the ground. Pretty good detourant when temptations have us thinking crazy.

Oh, that the true Prophets of God would arise and call the people of God to remember their covenant!

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/5/14 16:49Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

rocklife wrote:

Quote:
Ah, but some will say, we are no longer under the law. True, we are not under that law, but if we are true-born ...the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. (Rom 8:2 MKJV) Walking in the Spirit is 'obedience/faith' and only so can we pre-empt the 'fulfilling of the lusts of the flesh'. End Quote



Everyone lives under the law of God. I am not speaking of the Law given on Mount Sinai. I am speaking of God's demand on our life to love Him with our whole heart, soul and mind, and to love another. As you have said the law of Faith frees us from the law of sin. This truth touches all generations.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2004/5/14 16:51Profile





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