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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Oh Praise God!

Just a few minutes ago, coming out of prayer this was all just welling up in me. Started to write out something on "Conformed into the image of His Son". I only have a start and it became disjointed because of the excitment that I was feeling. Then I started reading all these excellent replys, right along the same lines...you all do such a wonderful job.

Quote:
I for one have found that the word "legalism" and the phrase "don't judge" have become very common among Christians. It seems to me that they have become the failsafe for not wanting to deal with sin, mixture and compromise in our lives. You can try to teach, admonish and exhort others with the scriptures as to why Christians should not do or be part of certain things and if they don't want to receive it then they cry legalism or say that you are being judgmental.



And as Chanin alluded to it is with sadness not a smarmy, 'better than' attitude. Some of the blame I think can be put on poor preaching and teaching, but definetly agree that when someone is jumping to defend themselves in this way I can only ask why? Would you be so agitated if you didn't have something to hide?

Quote:
That is my quest- to exalt Christ as King through my total submission to His Lordship. And if we will do that it has yet to be seen what God would do through such a yielded and obedient person. Beloved, is it possible to be overly obedient to Christ? Christ answered this himself when he said "And after you have done all that you were told to do say 'we are unprofitable servants, we have merely done our duty!" (Luke 17:10) When revival comes to our lives in New Testament fashion we will obey Christ no matter what we are told to do. We are dead. We are slaves. We have no will but Christ's when we have died to self. As Leonard Ravenhill said "May we all go to our own funeral at night and die to self..."



Yes! A thousand times yes! I have absolutely no doubt and can hardly comprehend what the Lord would do with even just [i][b]one[/b][/i] completely lovingly obedient vessel, let alone an army! Talk about your 'Dawn of the Dead'!

Certainly there are some here who are well on their way towards this. It seems to be a 'Spiritual bootcamp' around here with so many encouraging one another to press onto perfection. To dig deep and [i]cast out the unclean thing[/i].
To live Holy lives, not before men, but before God and [i]then[/i] our witness would be without words.

This is as far as I had gotten,

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
Joh 5:30


Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:9

*I took a break to gather my thoughts, picked up the newspaper and was struck down by something I read. See [url=http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=1867&post_id=11971&order=0&viewmode=thread&pid=0&forum=35#11971]What will it profit a man[/url]


_________________
Mike Balog

 2004/5/4 10:50Profile
dougkristen
Member



Joined: 2004/1/28
Posts: 360


 Re:

I can definatley related to being judged by others because of obedience. Two ideas come to mind, "No Compromise" and "Obedience to Jesus's words out of Love for Christ". If you love Me, you will obey my commands. We should not have to fear what others say to us if we are doing "such and such" if it is holy and in obedience to God's Word. I was in a situation once (a cult) where we were obeying a standard in God's word, and looked down at other Christians if they were not doing it and judging them. We actually believed that they were not saved. Spiritual Pride our small church group once had. I have years ago repented of this and now do not believe that all Christians should do such and such, or not. If we believe thought that a truth is right and should be lived out we should not give in if we are being judged by other people and Christians too. This is "No Compromsie". Stand strong on your convictions in spite of persecution.

Grace,
Doug


_________________
a Jesus freak

 2004/5/4 11:30Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: obedience

Mike,

Quote:
Certainly there are some here who are well on their way towards this. It seems to be a 'Spiritual bootcamp' around here with so many encouraging one another to press onto perfection. To dig deep and cast out the unclean thing.



I think the Lord is doing something here. Today in my prayer time I wrote out the "Day of Refinement" knowing i would post whatever He said.

Praise God, I see He is giving this message to a few of us and it is building into something. I went through this type of thing in 2002 by myself- but now I see where it is being used for 'corporate' cleansing too. :-)

In Him, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2004/5/4 12:10Profile
killertonedotcom
Member



Joined: 2004/5/4
Posts: 6


 Re: what defines obedience?

I remember ~15 years ago agonizing all day long over the hard sayings of Jesus--like unless you sell everything you cannot be his disciple.

No one else seemed to be bothered by such words. And there are many such things which Jesus said--things that seem 'radical'--like you would be a cultist if you actually obeyed them.

I concluded that I wanted to try to keep this command by living a simple life and not trying to become rich. This same desire to obey Jesus led me to convert a woman from a religion that was hostile towards Christ. I watched her lose her parents respect and love...I watched them seize her bank account. I watched them kidnap and take her to India to be married to a stranger. I watched God stop the marriage--as if by miracle. I took this all to mean that she was to be my wife.

Long story short...she now makes tons of money...so it is nearly impossible for me to obey Jesus' command, unless I divorce her (which I won't). I have nearly lost my faith in the Bible due in great part because of this marriage.

I don't get it! Why would God do this? I hope you can all see how this relates to the topic at hand.

Sincerely, Calbert

 2004/5/4 12:58Profile
killertonedotcom
Member



Joined: 2004/5/4
Posts: 6


 Re: what defines obedience?

I remember ~15 years ago agonizing all day long over the hard sayings of Jesus--like unless you sell everything you cannot be his disciple.

No one else seemed to be bothered by such words. And there are many such things which Jesus said--things that seem 'radical'--like you would be a cultist if you actually obeyed them.

I concluded that I wanted to try to keep this command by living a simple life and not trying to become rich. This same desire to obey Jesus led me to convert a woman from a religion that was hostile towards Christ. I watched her lose her parents respect and love...I watched them seize her bank account. I watched them kidnap and take her to India to be married to a stranger. I watched God stop the marriage--as if by miracle. I took this all to mean that she was to be my wife.

Long story short...she now makes tons of money...so it is nearly impossible for me to obey Jesus' command, unless I divorce her (which I won't). I have nearly lost my faith in the Bible due in great part because of this marriage.

I don't get it! Why would God do this? I hope you can all see how this relates to the topic at hand.

Sincerely, Calbert

 2004/5/4 12:59Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Quote:
I remember ~15 years ago agonizing all day long over the hard sayings of Jesus--like unless you sell everything you cannot be his disciple.

His instruction to the rich young ruler is not necessarily normative, the rich man cared so much about wealth that it had become an idol (when faced with a choice between obeying Jesus and keeping his wealth, he chose the wealth). Not all Christians have to sell everything they have after they convert, though if it's been an idol in their lives it may be necessary to truly disentangle themselves from their previous sin.

Personally I live on fairly little, and give the rest away, but God did not command me to go to the degree I have.

No one else seemed to be bothered by such words. And there are many such things which Jesus said--things that seem 'radical'--like you would be a cultist if you actually obeyed them.

Quote:
I concluded that I wanted to try to keep this command by living a simple life and not trying to become rich.

It's a good idea to live simply, there's quite a number of examples down through the ages (John Wesley comes to mind, in particular).

Quote:
This same desire to obey Jesus led me to convert a woman from a religion that was hostile towards Christ. I watched her lose her parents respect and love...I watched them seize her bank account. I watched them kidnap and take her to India to be married to a stranger. I watched God stop the marriage--as if by miracle. I took this all to mean that she was to be my wife.

Not an unreasonable conclusion. However, I think it's wise to let new converts have a couple years or so with the Lord and without the intense distraction of that kind of love. Did she persevere in her faith?

Quote:
Long story short...she now makes tons of money...so it is nearly impossible for me to obey Jesus' command

I don't think I understand which command you're referring to, as there's a great deal of difference between a preferable state and a commanded state. Also, why is it impossible? I'm sure there's God-centered people trying to reach the lost and those in need (particularly in undeveloped/developing areas of the world) that could definately use financial blessing to continue their work. Or are you referring to the temptation?

Quote:
unless I divorce her (which I won't).

Good, it would be sin to do so.

Quote:
I have nearly lost my faith in the Bible due in great part because of this marriage.

Why? Because you think it commands you to live in poverty? It doesn't. Again, I don't think I understand what command you're having difficulty obeying.

Quote:
I don't get it! Why would God do this?

He's got good reasons, I assure you.

Quote:
I hope you can all see how this relates to the topic at hand.

Yes: we obey God, no matter what. If we find ourselves in continuing disobediance to Him, the very meaning of our lives (not to mention fate) hangs by a tenuous thread.

Thank you for sharing your troubles, I hope I can be of some help; I'm just not sure exactly what the problem is.

God's grace be with you all,
-Keith

 2004/5/4 13:48Profile
killertonedotcom
Member



Joined: 2004/5/4
Posts: 6


 Re:


Quote:
Not all Christians have to sell everything they have after they convert, though if it's been an idol in their lives it may be necessary to truly disentangle themselves from their previous sin.



Actually I was thinking more about Luke 14:33 which makes it more of a general command to disciples. To get my point, just substitute in for Jesus' words what you said in the quote above...would that sound pretty different to the hearers? I am not trying to make anyone out there DO THIS--it is HARD!

In a Nutshell...faithwise, this marraige has not helped me to believe more in the Bible but less. The real downhill was when we attended a Calvinistic church, and I had to somehow explain that this all made sense to my wife that most of her family was just 'not chosen' for heaven.

My faith hangs by a thread...but I just don't understand why God would have put me into a situation where my faith would become weaker...after all, I was trying to OBEY HIM in this whole matter!

 2004/5/4 14:13Profile
KeithLaMothe
Member



Joined: 2004/3/28
Posts: 354


 Re:

Luke 14
33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple.

Wesley's explanatory notes:

So - Like this man, who, being afraid to face his enemy, sends to make peace with him, every one who forsaketh not all that he hath -
1 By withdrawing his affections from all the creatures;
2 By enjoying them only in and for God, only in such a measure and manner as leads to him;
3 By hating them all, in the sense above mentioned, cannot be my disciple - But will surely desist from building that tower, neither can he persevere in fighting the good fight of faith.

I think there's a difference between "forsaking" and "throwing away," when the thing itself has legitimate use. All the evil or questionable things should be out the window, and everything else should be yielded up to God to do with as He pleases. We should offer everything to Him, as Abraham offered Isaac. God didn't take Isaac, you see, but Abraham was willing to offer him. If God asks us for anything we have, we should be immediately disposed to give it to Him, but this is not equivalent with throwing all His blessings out the window.

I'd like to hear other opinions on the verse, it is one of the more striking in the whole Bible. It'd be something to put [b]that[/b] on a banner and carry it around while preaching, people'd get woken up if they had half a conception of what it meant.

Thank you for reminding me of the radical nature of being a disciple of Jesus Christ, may we all have knowledge of what it means to die to self, take up our cross, and follow Him daily.

Quote:
In a Nutshell...faithwise, this marraige has not helped me to believe more in the Bible but less.

Because God has blessed you financially, and you can't get rid of it fast enough?

Quote:
The real downhill was when we attended a Calvinistic church, and I had to somehow explain that this all made sense to my wife that most of her family was just 'not chosen' for heaven.

Whether or not we believe in the Calvinistic interpretation of predestination and election (I'm inclined towards it, to be honest), we must remember that God is Just and Good, and that we have no right whatsoever to go to Heaven. God would have been perfectly justified in sending every single one of us to hell, but He chose mercy for those that would believe. Her living family members still have a chance, too.

Quote:
My faith hangs by a thread...but I just don't understand why God would have put me into a situation where my faith would become weaker...after all, I was trying to OBEY HIM in this whole matter!

I feel, to some degree, your agony. Ever since my conversion I've been eagerly (often desperately) asking Him to make me what He wants me to be, to make me Christlike, to cleanse me totally from all possibility sin (even this free-will business, if He wouldn't mind, but He does). I haven't quite received all that, but God has been immeasurably faithful and has continued working in my life in the way He deems best (there's also my stubbornness, which is largely at fault).

Above all, obey, serve, and love God; not because it'll get you to Heaven, not because it'll keep you out of hell, not because of any temporal or eternal benefit to yourself, but because God deserves your obediance, service, and love.

Prayers are going up for you.

 2004/5/4 14:50Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: obedience

Carlos & Keith

Quote:
Above all, obey, serve, and love God; not because it'll get you to Heaven, not because it'll keep you out of hell, not because of any temporal or eternal benefit to yourself, but because God deserves your obediance, service, and love.



I second that!

This is one of my all time favorite sayings!!!

~Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2004/5/4 15:03Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Be of Good Cheer Brother!

Consider this passage:

1 Timothy 6:17-19

17Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment. 18Command them to do good, to be rich in good deeds, and to be generous and willing to share. 19In this way they will lay up treasure for themselves as a firm foundation for the coming age, so that they may take hold of the life that is truly life.

I have a teaching on covetousness that I will be uploading tomorrow that covers this topic pretty well. Zacheas was not required to sell "ALL" that he had of Christ and he was a rich man. He willingly gave the half of his goods. Jesus did not press him to give 100%.

Are there genuine believers that are rich in this world? Yes! What are they to do with their wealth? Are you generous? Willing to share? When you see a need to you close the bowels of your compassion? Do you trust in these riches? As Keith pointed out, are they an idol? Are you covetous? These are sins.

You cannot simply take one or two passages of scripture and formulate the whole counsel of God on wealth. What does God say from Genesis to Revelation? It may be the words of Christ you are quoting, but the whole Canon is God breathed. Did not the Holy Spirit inspire the writers of the Gospel to write what words the Holy Spirit wanted in the canon? It is all profitable for doctrine and instruction in righteousness.

As for Calvinism who can say who are the elect in this life? Who knows but God who's names are written in the book? This is why we preach the Gospel. it is not for me to know who is elect or not- I simply am here to cast the net. Christ will seperate the sheep from the goats!


Be strong in the Lord my brother! The enemy is trying to SIFT (Greek 'riddle') your faith. We all go through these things. the devil knows the word of God better than any human who ever lived other than Christ and he knows how to riddle our faith with questions. You will get through this time if you trust Christ! It is my prayer that your faith fail you not!

Call me collect if you need to! After 9:00 PM Central Time

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/5/4 15:05Profile





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