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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : Is the Prophetic Movement Revival in our day??!

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wallbuilder
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 44


 Re:

This is probably my last post about all this.

Just for the record-Bob Jones is NOT currently publicly endorsed by IHOP. He is not mentioned on their site, and neither IHOP, nor Mike Bickle has a link on Bob Jones' website.

Why do I continue to defend this? Because half truths about a brother in Christ matters to me. Also, it is NOT ok to call someone a false prophet or teacher, when it's not true. It's one thing to come against doctrine, but another thing to publicly speak against a brother in Christ.

I will continue to defend "the faith" of IHOP and the integrity of Mike Bickle. They're both solid Biblically. (Not that they even need my defense, but I'll do it anyway).

I guess that's about all I have to say about all this. Obviously I disagree with most of what's been said for allllll the previous things I've already written.

Here is IHOP's refutation of their "false teachings".

http://www.ihop.org/Publisher/Article.aspx?id=1000010561

I'm done.

 2007/8/17 17:19Profile









 Re:

Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:

And if a man issues a false prophecy the Word of God calls that man a false prophet.

________________________________________




I think I already proved through the Word in one of my first posts that this statement is false.

A prophet can prophecy and it not come to pass. The word is clear to me. One who prophecies and it doesnt come to pass, they were "presumptuous" or have spoken presumptuously.

One who prophecies and "it comes to pass," and they use this power to make others follow after other Gods, they are a false prophet.



Quote:

KrispyKrittr wrote:
Quote:
________________________________________

Now, you just scolded us for judging... and in the same paragraph you yourself judge us. Do you see any duplicity here? And we have discussed the plethora of false teachers/prophets on TV.
________________________________________




Many of you here have judged by talking about men in which you do not know their hearts.

If I have judged it was on the fact that here on "SI" I have never seen a posting on a Psychic, but lots almost to fill a book on false teachers and prophets. Mainly because they are not perfect to matching ones interpretation of the word.

(on other matters)
You have personally Kritter said you were in a prophetic affiliate church. Which I guess someone immature taught you a wrong thing or spoke something that didn't come to pass. Get over it. If I overanalyze you long enough I am pretty sure this will be the case.



(Other men on SI and the internet in general)

The constant bashing of true Men of God over and over, heeding your bashings reading what you say with an open heart and wearing myself reading what you have wrote with many, many words, never ever making any good solid points.



This website reeks with religion of word and no reality of supernatural reality. Like many are scared of it.
Proof of this is that in a debating thread tons of postings, a supernatural based thread, and hardly any postings.


(in general to all)

So let me say this. Are you perfectly doctrinally sound? Why do you keep on thinking men who love Jesus are false, because they teach and rationalize something from the word that you dont. They are not changing foundational issues concerning accepting Jesus Christ and Living Holy. One man here on this thread brought up a prophetic man's backslidings. I dont wanna hear that. I know who the accuser of the brethren is, and this seems to be imitating him. I cannot believe people here who are much wiser in the Word intellectually than me are so divisive.


I follow peoples links on this thread and others on "SI". I must say make no good points, none of you and none of these links make any solid points. Because I have studied a mans teachings in depth who is being accused on this particular thread, I feel if one should or could make a logical statement about him it's me. Many of you admit to not even reading who your accusing work in depth. To me you have already judged what and who they are.

On this particular thread I followed a link, John Kilpatrick was a name I found on one of the links. Even Dr. Michael Brown who is allowed to have sermon postings here had a disagreement with him, yet will tell you, he personally knows he is a man of God. But the link calls him false prophet.

I respect you all because you are smart with the word. But when it comes to men of God who believe in the supernatural, it seems to me here on "SI" are swiftly labeled false prophet. I dont and will never understand your divisive reasoning.

Probably why I see so many postings on "SI" about loneliness..


 2007/8/17 17:23
wallbuilder
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 44


 Re:

ce4

I agree with you. Honestly, I have never seen so much slander on a "Christian discussion forum".

 2007/8/17 17:29Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 30895
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Affirmations and Denials



The Manifest Sons of God Theology


WE AFFIRM all born-again believers will be manifest as sons of God after the Second Coming of Christ.

WE DENY that we will experience the fullness of our inheritance as sons of God before Jesus returns.

Explanation: Some uphold the false teaching that in this age believers can have faith that will enable them to attain to qualities of life that are reserved only for believers in the resurrection.


The Latter Rain


WE AFFIRM the Church will experience the greatest outpouring of the Spirit in history before Jesus returns (Joel 2:2832). This outpouring will result in a great ingathering of souls and a renewing of the Church so that it walks in godliness as declared in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 57). We affirm the presence of the 5fold ministry for the equipping of the saints (Ephesians 4:1113).

WE DENY the distinctive doctrines that go beyond Scripture that are often associated with the Latter Rain theology that was popularized in the 1950s.

Explanation: Some have wrongly identified our ministry today with the false teachings that were popularized by some in the Latter Rain movement. We have had no relationship at all to this past movement.


Dominion Theology


WE AFFIRM that Gods purpose is for Jesus to come back to fully establish His Kingdom rule over all the Earth. After the Second Coming, the saints will rule the Earth under the leadership of Jesus Christ when He sets up His government on the Earth in the Millennial Kingdom (1 Corinthians 6:2; Revelation 5:10 and 20:36). We believe that believers in this age are called to serve Jesus in politics and to help establish righteousness and justice in legislation. We do NOT have the assurance that ALL laws and governments will be changed until after the Second Coming of Jesus to establish His Millennial Kingdom.

WE DENY the Church will take over all the governments of the Earth before the return of Christ.

Explanation: some teach and believe that all governments on the Earth will be transformed by the Church before the Second Coming of Jesus.


Joels Army


WE AFFIRM that the army in Joel 2:111 was an ungodly Babylonian army that destroyed Jerusalem in 586 BC. We believe that this passage has a double fulfillment as it points to the Antichrists army that will attack Israel at the end of the age. We affirm that Joel was prophesying of the lifestyle of godly believers in Joel 2:1217.

WE DENY Joel 2:111 describes the end-time church.

Explanation: The term "Joels Army" has been used to signify the people who walk out the principles of prayer with fasting as taught in Joel 2:1217. The term has been used much like "Joseph Company", "Gideon Band" or "David Company" to signify the people who embraced the godly qualities that Joel taught about prayer, fasting and wholehearted obedience. Paul Cain had a prophetic word about a Joel's Army in training, referring to a group of people who would give themselves to prayer and fasting according to Joel 2:1217. When used like this, Joel's Army does not refer specifically to the destroying army mentioned in Joel 2:111, but to people who walk out the Joel 2:1217 lifestyle. The misunderstanding comes from giving the title Joels Army to both the destroying army (Joel 2:111) and the group of people who give themselves to fasting and prayer (Joel 2:1217).


The use of Prophecy


WE AFFIRM the Bible is the inerrant and sole objective source of direction and wisdom for the life of a believer. We believe in the operation of the prophetic ministry as a source of edification, exhortation, and comfort from the Lord (1 Corinthians 14:3). We believe that the subjectivity of the prophetic ministry must be vigorously tested against the inspired and infallible Scriptures that God gave for doctrine, reproof, correction and for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16).

WE DENY subjective prophetic experiences are equal to the inspired Word of God. In other words, all personal prophecy must uphold and honor the Scripture.

Explanation: Simple prophecy is limited to edification, exhortation and comfort (1 Corinthians 14:3). It is to enrich our spiritual life, rather than give direction in the domestic areas of our life. Edification speaks of spiritually building or edifying someones spirit by confirming their destiny or Gods purpose for their life. The most common way to edify through simple prophecy is to give a Scripture that has been previously important to them. Exhortation includes calling people to persevere and not give up on their promises in God in hard times and to not give into sin. Comfort speaks of making known Gods perspective in a great disappointment or set back in their life by giving Gods perspective in telling people that God has a plan in their pressure.

We urge people to avoid giving others prophetic direction in the domestic areas of their life. This includes issues related to spousal designation, bearing children, changing jobs, moving, buying or selling (i.e. house) or leaving one church for another, etc. We may give godly counsel to one another in domestic areas without presenting it as a prophecy. Personal prophecies should be given with others as witness (we request that prophecies be recorded when possible). Some have an over-reliance on dreams for direction in their domestic lives. God never intended to direct people mostly by dreams. Yes, God does use dreams to give some direction; however, they are not to be a substitute of gaining wisdom from Scripture. Some rely on dreams for decisions because it absolves them from the responsibility for lacking wisdom if the decision turns out wrong (Ecclesiastes 5:3, 7).


The Tabernacle of David


WE AFFIRM the Holy Spirit is orchestrating a global worship and prayer movement that will operate in great authority (Luke 18:78; Matthew 21:13; Revelation 5:8, 8:35, 22:17; Isaiah 62:67; Joel 2:1217 and 32). This prayer movement will operate in the spirit of the Tabernacle of David.

WE DENY the restoration of the tabernacle of David is the same as the end-time prayer movement.

Explanation: In the days of King David, he established a tabernacle that had singers and musicians who ministered to the Lord day and night. Today, the prayer movement is in the spirit of Davids Tabernacle. This means that the prayer movement will have some components of the Tabernacle of David, specifically pertaining to singers and musicians.

The promise of the restoration of the tabernacle of David refers to the governmental restoration of Davids international rule as part of the restoration of national Israel in the Millennial Kingdom.
The context of Amos 9:1112 is the governmental rule of Jesus over all the nations from Jerusalem.

In Acts 15:1318, James referred to Amos 9:11 declaring that Gentiles should be accepted into the predominantly Jewish Body of Christ, without needing to convert to Judaism. The apostles understood that in the End Times, God would re-establish the Messianic kingdom over all the nations. God has just visited the Gentiles with salvation at Cornelius house (Acts 10). This was in agreement with Old Testament prophecy. James quoted Amos to prove that many Gentiles will be saved in context to the restoration of the Davidic dynastic reign. This restoration will of course include Davids heart for worship and prayer. Though Amos 9:11 is not prophesying primarily about 24/7 intercessory worship, it will be a foundational reality in the release of Jesus worldwide rule over the nations. The prophetic word given to Mike Bickle in May 1983 was that God would release 24 hour-a-day prayer in the spirit of the Tabernacle of David. In other words, it would involve prophetic singers and musicians. Worship and intercession is not in itself the actual restoration of Davids tabernacle!


Many of these statements are quite admirable and do seem like they are seeking what is "best" in all these things in which there is found truth. In "The use of Prophecy" section, I do have trouble with to the fact that many prophecies are taken past scripture in their reliance and rest on them.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - brother Greg

"We out-thought the Lord here in America. We told His Spirit that we can do it all in our own cleverness or we told Him that He could not work that way anymore. Either way, we seem to have lost Him here in America. He took His fire to China." - anonymous

 2007/8/17 17:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:

wallbuilder wrote:
ce4

I agree with you. Honestly, I have never seen so much slander on a "Christian discussion forum".





Amen. I think Jesus does too.

 2007/8/17 17:35
davidt
Member



Joined: 2006/5/21
Posts: 325


 Re:

I agree with much of what wallbuilder has said. I also believe that many throw the baby out with the bathwater. I believe people can have the problem and inclination to too soonly throw a ministry out for some problems. The Church can be sick and growing there is room for that. There are also people who are just intellectuals as I once was and do not have a prayer life and so are bent in their carnality and then cant make good decisions.

However I would also like to say that I do not know how far to go with what and so many ministries are questionable. It does take a lot looking into to be in the right place.

Glitter, oil from hands, and all that other stuff I deem to be false. Barking and making animals noises and being drunk in the Spirit I also will say is false. I will emphatically say the Holy Spirit of God produces cross loving, self dying people and not hyped up glory chasers. And, I am not saying dont seek the glory of God, but in their way of manifestations, clouds, and angels just for fun is no good. And, I would go as far as to say feeling the weight of it for it is heavy that it is deception spiritually though much of it may just be somewhat and sometimes emotionalism with good motives.

God help this generation it is going down the tubes. No one wants to follow sound doctrine and the multitudes will follow anyone with confidence and charisma. I thank God that He is in control and sovereign and in the midst ready to bring justice. I pray that false teeachers be judged and that the immature Church be refined in Jesus name.

Lastly, I would like to say that I read a good book. It is a book that is well fitting for this situation. It is called Revival God's Way by Leonard Ravenhill. He says in a day when we have tried every other way let us now do it Gods way. He speaks of the serious times we are in and the drastic measures that need to imperatively be taken for a poweful revival. Also, prayer that need to be interceding like Gethsemane and cross nailing and so on. And, what I found to be the most hard hitting thing: "you can give me a preacher who can give me all the statistics of abortions and the secret weapons of communism and so on and produce a gruesome picture of the world today and I will say judgment begins in the house of God the world lies bleeding to death at our feet and what are we doing. I call by the grace of God that the Church gets right and "sharply" rebuked like the Cretans in Paul's epistle, so God help us in this cataclysmic last age to wake up from slumbering in Gethsemane.


_________________
Mine eye runneth down with rivers of water for the destruction of the daughter of my people. Mine eye trickleth down, and ceaseth not, without any intermission, [u]Till the LORD look down, and behold from heaven[/u]. Lamentations 3:48-50

 2007/8/17 17:41Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 30895
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
Amen. I think Jesus does too.


Brothers and Sisters,

What I find difficult is being involved and having many friends in even "far off" prophetic churches and movements, there is still a unity of the spirit of God that we can find. There are some "other spirits" as "other gospels" and "other jesus's" but I know many good brothers involved with movements that are not the best. As for Ihop and other movements close to them what I find difficult is the having to accept that all the prophecies of Bob Jones and Paul Cain as "true" absolutely towards the formation of IHOP and other movements such as these.

So put simply we need to either accept these men as prophets and true and believe that this is "the new thing" God is doing, or they are mis-led and are trying for the best but perhaps are not hearing from God as clearly as they should.

It is important to state that a desire for "revival" is good and Ihop and other movements are desiring for revival, but I am not ashamed to say that most in these movements do not realize what revival actually is. The only true revival that is from God is biblical and [b]cross centered[/b]. We have no conception of cross preaching or cross life anymore.

On another note much of the music, prophecies and messages coming out of these "new" movements (prophetic movement) cater to self and flesh, even though you could say such as IHOP has much to say on living a self-abased life in fasting in prayer, but the reality is many are living carnal self-absorbed lifes that are catering to the flesh and selfishness.


Here is a comparision of gnotistic thought compared to biblical fundamental belief of the early church, sadly [b]"some"[/b] areas of gnotism are found in these "new" movements, I am not making a blanket statement with this:

FUNDAMENTAL ORTHODOX CHRISTIANITY:

Based on: God's Word.
Acknowledges: Deith of Jesus Christ.
Believes: Man is basically sinful, and only GOD can correct the evil in him.
Gives glory to: GOD
God: Believe in a PERSONAL GOD who is all good.
Salvation: Spiritual rebirth that takes place when an individual chooses to believe by faith the DEITY of JESUS CHRIST, recognises the SIN in his life and chooses to follow Christ and turn from his sin according to the Scriptures.
Faith based on: The Word of God.
The Answer: Jesus Christ - according to the Scriptures.
Christ: Jesus Christ, the one and only fully God and fully man.
The Bible: NOTHING should be added and NOTHING should be taken away from the Bible. It is the COMPLETE WORD OF GOD. Interpreted literally and the literal meaning received.
Commitment: To the Lord Jesus Christ according to the Scriptures.
GNOSTIC/NEW AGE THOUGHT:

Based on: Man's word.
Acknowledges: Deith of man.
Believes: Man is good and getting better.
Gives glory to: Self
God: Belief in God or a great force or energy or One Mind. An impersonal God with both good and bad.
Salvation: Spiritual awakening that comes when an individual experiences "his own divinity".
Faith based on: Experience.
The Answer: Finding the "self" or "god" within and striving with "works".
Christ: A position of status held by all deserving members. Arrived at by "self", "experience" and "works".
The Bible: They pick and choose Scriptures to suit their purposes. They say the Scriptures can be "interpreted" in many different ways. Spiritualised to say whatever they want.
Commitment: To self - or God through a passive or emotional experiential form of religion.



My heart in sharing this is to share my heart concern and burden of people not seeking what is "best" in the realm of what God desires for His church. We need a revival that is historical, biblical, and soley from God and that is God honoring and God glorifying. I am not interested in revivals that build organizations and flashy tv ministries and movements. I personally think what we see in the "prophetic movement" is some good brothers and sisters caught up in something that seems like what is best right now in our apostate Christianity but I beg with you to consider the fact that there is much more and that biblical Christianity is not boring, cross preaching is not boring, preaching on the blood is not boring, music that is more simple is not boring, we need a revival of good old religion not something new and fanciful to our emotions.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - brother Greg

"We out-thought the Lord here in America. We told His Spirit that we can do it all in our own cleverness or we told Him that He could not work that way anymore. Either way, we seem to have lost Him here in America. He took His fire to China." - anonymous

 2007/8/17 17:51Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 30895
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re:

Quote:
I will emphatically say the Holy Spirit of God produces cross loving, self dying people and not hyped up glory chasers.


[b]!!!![/b]

cross loving,
self dying!


Quote:
God help this generation it is going down the tubes. No one wants to follow sound doctrine and the multitudes will follow anyone with confidence and charisma. I thank God that He is in control and sovereign and in the midst ready to bring justice. I pray that false teeachers be judged and that the immature Church be refined in Jesus name.


Amen.

I had a thought also of why there is not "hard" preaching on: hell, judgement, sin, carnality, flesh, and other topics that are not touched on in modern day churches. I would say that most churches "prophetic" or not are easy on sin and worldliness in our day.


_________________
SermonIndex.net Moderator - brother Greg

"We out-thought the Lord here in America. We told His Spirit that we can do it all in our own cleverness or we told Him that He could not work that way anymore. Either way, we seem to have lost Him here in America. He took His fire to China." - anonymous

 2007/8/17 17:59Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
(Other men on SI and the internet in general)

The constant bashing of true Men of God over and over, heeding your bashings reading what you say with an open heart and wearing myself reading what you have wrote with many, many words, never ever making any good solid points.



This website reeks with religion of word and no reality of supernatural reality. Like many are scared of it.
Proof of this is that in a debating thread tons of postings, a supernatural based thread, and hardly any postings.




Quote:
Amen. I think Jesus does too.



One of the more common retorts to a disagreement is of this order sadly. You would paint all that is made available and all that gives you place to speak freely with such a broad brush shows a true lack of gratitude, ignorance and spiritual pride all it's own.

Who made you judges over the good people that fellowship here?

This 'website' is enormous in scope and depth and available resources, challenge your perspective, search out it's bowels, there is more spiritual truth here than you could ever possibly assimilate.

And please stay on topic if you must quarrel over things. It is a cheap and flippant way to go after everybody en masse by one or even a handful of postings. There is far more history here than you have the foggiest idea of.


_________________
Mike Balog

[i]Here I found the benefit of a principle which I invariably adopt, of never pressing upon any human being my sentiments or wishes, without an absolute necessity. If a friend be reduced to the necessity of refusing or complying, he will feel grieved: but if, though with pain to himself, he do anything without being importuned, he has a sweet feeling of love excited by that very act; or, it he refrain from doing what you wish, he feels a love to you for not pressing him against his will.[/i] ~ Charles Simeon

 2007/8/18 0:50Profile









 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:
There is far more history here than you have the foggiest idea of.



That is just plain rude. I am very greatful for the awesome material here.
What does this have to do with anything. I am talking about the chat forum, not the material here, which I admit are beyond a blessing. I dont agree with you or the other guys so you hit me hard. I get it. I have no pride, you just stripped me bare. Do it some more, I like it. I can hardly even understand what you write anyway, its chinese to me, I'm just a simpleton. Please if you can speak a little more simple english instead of your wording which is hard for me to understand.

You aint doing nothing but what I have been doing. You are off the topic and being reproving, just as I was.

You know what..... Thank you, I am blessed from what I am learning here, but I dont have to agree with what you or anyone else have said or judged on this thread. If you dont want me around anymore you dont have to beat me with a stick, just say the word, I'm outta here.

 2007/8/18 1:44





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