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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Gentile Tribulation Question

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Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 The Two Marriages of Heaven ...



i thank God i don't struggle with this conflict of Israel vs. Christian ... :-P

The way i see it is as the two marriges of heaven ... God the Father's marriage to Israel, as outlined in the OT from Genesis to Malachi toward the birthing of their Son Jesus Christ into the world that he may become the Lamb slain before the founding of the world as means to taking away the sins of even the gentiles in fulfilment of God's promise to Abraham ...

Gen.26
[4] And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed.

i'm sure Abraham had no idea that this promise over mellenia would entail his begetting numbering as the stars of heaven, seeds of both natural (Israel) and spiritual (Christians including so called Messianic Jews) sons and daughter who would become heirs to the promise God the Father gave him ...

Seems this marriage has it's ups and downs along the corridors of time ... God the Father is always faithful to her, she not so much to Him to the point that He had Hosea written to tell us how He feels about her adulteries, with this one outstanding point made clear in the culmination of the book: God the Father doesn't believe in divorce, and that tells me that even after Christ came into His ministry and upset their apple cart to the point that they really went left field on Him, He's still not thru with her in that the Bible shows us He's still dealing with, and protecting her, even after the 1,000 year reign of Christ when satan is released once more, and he makes a bee-line (via many of the same nations that hate them even now) straight toward them again! ...

How any saint today can believe that Israel has been replaced by us the Church in it's marriage to God the Father is beyond me, as we as Christians (including so called Messianic Jews) are not God the Father's Bride - but God the Son's - we whom even Christ said His Father GAVE TO HIM ... And then there is the glaring WARNING of Romans 11 to we (Christians) who are grafted in, even to the mind blowing explanation (which admittedly is as much beyond my spiritual grasp of understanding as Romans 9) that God darkened Israels spiritual senses so that we could even be grafted in in the first place ..

[b]Rom.11
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.[/b]

This phrase really sticks out to me "wise in your own conceits (excessive appreciation of one's own worth or virtue)" ... OUCH!!!


Here's a link to an article that i think very informative on this subject ...

[b]The Seed of Abraham: Children of the Covenants[/b]
http://www.awarenessministry.org/abraham.htm

which at it's end includes this very simple yet ointed statement ... [b]"Let Israel be Israel and the Church be the Church".[/b]


Quoted from: Conclusion ...

"The controversy between the two polarized theologies of "Replacement" and "Continuation" can be resolved. Let Israel be Israel and the Church be the Church. There is no conflict. We must permit the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel to apply to both the Christian Church and the nation of Israel. This is Abraham's dual posterity, it is his natural and spiritual seed coexisting in the earth. God will, in due process, bring them both into His perfect will. Does God want His natural seed to become spiritual seed? Of course He does. Will it happen? We have God's word on it"

"...blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins" (Romans 11:25-27).

God works uniquely with the nation of Israel as with no other nation on earth. The Church must accept this, seek to understand it and assume its proper role in the divine strategy of their restoration and redemption.

God does not love the Jewish people beyond other nations of the earth. However, the Church must be a channel through which the Jewish people will receive the "mercy" which has been so long denied them by the nations of the world:

"Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy" (Romans 11:31 KJV).

As the tide of world opinion flows against the Jews, the Christian believer must stand in the gap and compensate for our failures of the past to do so.

The spiritual seed of Abraham are under obligation to bless the natural seed. It was the Jews who blessed the nations with God's plan of salvation. Jesus said:

"...for salvation is from the Jews" (John 4:22 NIV).

There is a sense in which Abraham was the father of salvation because Christ was the seed of Abraham. The Covenant of Abraham and the Covenant of Grace constitute God's redemptive plan.

The good news is that a fresh awakening to truth is taking place and many believers are getting a new vision of God's covenantal relationship to the Jewish people and the nation of Israel. If the Church must emphasize a "Replacement Theology" let it be one which declares the prophetic "re-placement" of all their land into the hands of its rightful owners, the Jews. Ultimately we shall rejoice to see both the land and the people restored to the eternal purposes of God and to participate in the full and complete reconciliation between Israel and the Church, Abraham's natural and spiritual seed (Ephesians 2:14). This is what God is working to achieve. LET US WORK WITH HIM. So who are "THE SEED OF ABRAHAM?" Can there be any doubt?"


 2007/8/9 15:57Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Questions for Bro. Ironman? ... ...



Yo Doc you wrote;

"i think it is important to note that not all Israel are the seed of Abraham so not all Jews will be Saved "

--- When you say "not all Israel are the seed of Abraham" are you talking about by lineage, or the actual make up of the present day nation of Israel? ... and when you say "so not all Jews will be Saved" how do you stack your statement up against ...

Rom.
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

This latter question i ask because i've really never understood this "saving" passage especially, and by your statement you seem to have some insight that escapes me ... It doesn't seem that you think God the Father is saying this saving of Israel to be literally to every man, woman and child from time in memorial as i don't either because surely a Jew who rejects Christ now and dies is bound for hell just like everyone else, so do you think this is for a future God appointed time from when it arrives every Jew shall be saved from then on, or do you think the passage is just figurative? ...

Bottom line ... What's your take on this passage? ---

PS - Anyone else is welcome to comment, i just posed the ?'s to bro. Ironman because of his statement ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus all! ...



 2007/8/9 16:02Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: Questions for Bro. Ironman? ... ...

Quote:
and there is also Israel as a physical nation to whom God still has a covenant with that He intends to keeps.



Which covenant is that? It cannot be the covenant made with Abraham because that was made to Abraham and his Seed--which is Christ. Everyone who is in Christ is a child of Abraham and a heir of the promise. (Gal. 3).

It cannot be the New Covenant because that is through Jesus Christ as well.

There is no other covenant. Search the scriptures, God has no 'other covenant' with the nation of Israel.

 2007/8/9 16:08Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

JaySaved,

You've forgotten that God made two covenants with Abraham... actually, one when he was yet Abram, and the other when he was Abraham.

The covenant I am talking about that still stands today is the land covenant to which God promised Abraham and He has never broken it nor ever will break it with the nation of Israel. See in Psalm 105:8-11,

[i]"[b]He hath remembered his covenant forever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.[/b]

Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

[b]And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant[/b]:

Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance."[/i]

This covenant stands today. If you are saying otherwise, then God has broken His word, which is impossible. There was no condition on this covenant. He promised it, He will fulfill it, forever.


_________________
Eli Brayley

 2007/8/9 16:51Profile









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Eli said

Quote:
This covenant stands today. If you are saying otherwise, then God has broken His word, which is impossible. There was no condition on this covenant. He promised it, He will fulfill it, forever.

Isn't this mentioned in the verses I quoted from Ezekiel 11?

17 Therefore say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even gather you from the people, and assemble you out of the countries where ye have been scattered, a[b]nd I will give you the land of Israel[/b].
18 And they shall come thither, and they shall take away all the detestable things thereof and all the abominations thereof from thence.
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
20 [b]That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God[/b].
21 But [i]as for them[/i] whose heart walketh after the heart of their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their way upon their own heads, saith the Lord GOD.


While you say it isn't conditional - and didn't seem to be when it was given to Abraham, it was, neverthelss given to Abraham [i]because[/i] he [b][i]believed God[/i][/b].

And so, God has not really changed the terms of fulfilling it.

But, the people, by ceasing to believe Him have disenfranchised themselves of receiving the fulfilment of this promise - while yet in unbelief.

After all, unbelief is why the Hebrews didn't enter the land after Egypt the first time....

Isn't it?

 2007/8/9 17:21
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Hi Linn,

This Scripture from Ezekiel is a millennial promise, which will be fulfilled when Jesus returns to turn again the backslidden Jewish nation. The Church today only has a foretaste of the fulfillment of this prophesy. It also said elsewhere that no one will need to say "Know the Lord" because everyone will know Him. This has not been fulfilled yet, but will be fulfilled once Israel as a nation is redeemed and the knowledge of God fills the whole earth.

I don't see faith as a condition for earning anything but, maybe for simply receiving it. For instance, a father might tell his little son that he just bought a whole bucket of ice-cream and it is sitting in the kitchen just waiting to be devoured... the boy didn't do anything to earn it, the father did this unconditionally because he loves the child. But if the son doesn't believe then he won't go into the kitchen and eat it. So the GIVING of the ice-cream is entirely free and unconditional, but the boy's RECEIVING of it is dependent upon his faith in his father's truthfulness. So in this sense I do not see faith as a condition or a work required for salvation, or God's covenant. However, without faith we do not inherit the promises for the obvious reason.

But remember that God's covenant is with the nation of Israel, and though a whole generation of individuals fell in the desert, God did not break covenant with the nation. I believe that even Israel's blindness and unbelief, when removed, will be a sovereign act of God and not something that they themselves accomplished.

Hope that makes sense,
-Eli


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Eli Brayley

 2007/8/9 18:10Profile
Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Reply to Sis Dorcas ...



Sis Dorcas you wrote ...

After all, unbelief is why the Hebrews didn't enter the land after Egypt the first time....

Isn't it? ...


--- Amen - that generation did'nt ... But once they had died off the new generation after did ...

Didn't they? ...


i truly believe that many a saint may be most sincere in their beliefs about these arguments against the Jews, as i also believe them to stem out of as God Himself said via Paul a perhaps misguided, but nevertheless "conciet" ...

i won't argue with anyone who still wants to discard Israel as still importand to God the Father, because if Romans 11 can't get thru the blindness nothing i say ever could ... That would be as futile as continuing to debate the reason for this thread in the first place, past Rev. 7 ... Apparently such "replacement" thinking had already cropped up it's ugly vileness straight from the pit of hell in Paul's time, and so God the Father had to address it directly ...

[i][b][color=0066FF] Lord God a pastor once prayed a similar prayer for me when i couldn't see past what Scripture was obviously saying and You granted it ... So i'm asking You to please knock the scales from anyone's eyes regarding this matter in the reading of the following passages which You inspired the Apostle Paul to write ... In the precious name of Jesus, and by power and might of Holy Spirit i petition ... Amen ...[/color][/b][/i]

How much plainer can this be? ...

[b][color=CC3300]Rom. 11[/color][/b]
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that [b][color=CC3300]blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.[/color][/b]
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] [b][color=CC3300]For this is my COVENANT unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, THEY ARE BELOVED FOR THE FATHER'S SAKE.
[29] FOR THE GIFTS AND CALLING OF GOD ARE WITHOUT REPENTANCE. [/color][/b]


You keep putting the onus of the covenant being kept on Israel and their treatment of God, when the onus of the covenant is on God Himself because of His choosing them in the first place ...

To me Israel's condition is not much different than Rom. 9 to we saints as being predestined and called ... Is this predistination based on the onus of how we willeth, or runneth, or is it based on God that sheweth mercy to whomever He pleases, however He pleases to His own glory? ...


[b][color=CC3300] Rom.9[/color][/b]
[15] For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
[16] So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
[17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
[18] Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
[19] Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
[20] Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
[21] Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
[22] What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
[23] And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
[24] Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Is God the Father finished with the Jew, with Israel? ... According to Romans 11, and the fact that the events of the Revelation yet future is still hinged on them, i'd say scripture says no ...

I'm done ... As i said ... it don't get no plainer than the following ...


[b][color=CC3300] Rom.11
[1] I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
[2] God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying,
[3] Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
[4] But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
[5] Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
[6] And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
[7] What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
[8] (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
[9] And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
[10] Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
[11] I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
[12] Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness?
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
[18] Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
[19] Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
[23] And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
[28] As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
[29] For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
[30] For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
[31] Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
[32] For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
[33] O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
[34] For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counseller?
[35] Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
[36] For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. [/color][/b]

 2007/8/9 18:33Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re: Questions for Bro. Ironman? ... ...

bro Rahman
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.


Quote:
When you say "not all Israel are the seed of Abraham" are you talking about by lineage, or the actual make up of the present day nation of Israel? ... and when you say "so not all Jews will be Saved" how do you stack your statement up against ...



it is both. Not everyone who is called a Jew is a child of the Promise that God made to Abraham. To be a Jew in the sense of the Promise is something beyond what we see in modern Jewry even from when Christ came. The makeup of Israel as she is now includes some of the children of the Promise and some which are not. There is Election among the Jews also unto Salvation.so it is not every man, woman and child who is a Jew that will be Saved but rather those Elected.

from Romans 9

[b]6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.[/b]

now for the scripture you quoted, the reference is to all those of Israel who had been Elected to Salvation much like how the word says that God wishes all men to be Saved and so he tarries and this is a reference to the Elect and the bringing in of every Soul called to Salvation. In this sense then ALL Israel (every man woman and child Elected to Salvation) will indeed be saved because not one soul among the Elect (Jew or Gentile) will be lost. we know the scriptures are literal concerning this and i believe this view of seeing that not all are Abraham's seed of the Promise (not all are ISrael that are of Israel) but of those that are (the seed of the Promise) all Israel will be Saved as you brought up.

hope that clears it up.

Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.


i hope that answers you question


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/8/9 20:26Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question

The children of Abraham were a separate segment of Hebrews that saw spiritually as King David did.

There was a different segment of the Hebrews that lived in Judea that believed in works and self righteousness in the time of Christ and they crucified our Lord.

Jerusalem built on Holy Mount Zion was the great spiritual Babylonian whore that killed the Prophets and our Christ and was totally destroyed as Our Lord prophesied.

So the question I pose to each of you, are you ministering to The Body Of Christ and teaching the laws of The kingdom of God, or have you rejected the Chief Conner Stone and teaching works and the same self righteousness confusion that is being taught in Synagogues and Mosques.
Eddie

Matthew 21
40. When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41. They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?


_________________
Eddie

 2007/8/9 20:29Profile









 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question

Re: Reply to sis Dorcas


Hi Rahman,

First Rahman, I thought you and I are on the same page...? 8-)

Quote:
--- Amen - that generation did'nt ... But once they had died off the new generation after did ...

Didn't they?

Of course, but this is figurative in several ways of truth which all Christians should be grasping early on in their walk with God. (Of course it is real time history, but, so is the Christian life... ;-) )

For instance, the first birth is superseded by the second birth - the older [brother] is superseded by the younger. The Hebrews left with Egypt in their hearts, carrying Egyptian idols and Egypt killed them in the wilderness because they wouldn't give it up whole heartedly.

Whereas today, when we leave Egypt and cross the red sea, we are redeemed as they were - their and our enemies are actually destroyed in reality. But, by the time we've wandered through our own wilderness, either we have co-operated with God in allowing sin to be killed off in us through obedience, or we die there, also never to enter the land of promised freedom. And plenteous eternal life which was signified in the Jordan's being in flood when it parted to them, symbolising the outpouring of the Spirit, (through which we obtain ultimate victorious possesion). There are many pictures one could pick out, of which these are samples.

If you check out what God did in the OT, He chose individual men and promised to bless their descendants similarly [i]only[/i] [u]if[/u] the descendants continued as their forefather.

God never promised anything to Israel which Israel kept completely. That's why He is always promising not to destroy them all, which is His prerogative as you mention from Romans.

I don't disagree. But, there is nowhere in scripture that Israel the nation is let off the hook of compliance with God's terms.

If they break the covenant He offers them, it sets [u]Him[/u] free to revise the terms of the next covenant. And this He does. Because He is God, and He is just, and He always had a [i]best[/i] one [wine] lined up for them. Jesus.

I realise it's popular to determine some of these promises on the [u]nation[/u] of Israel separately from faith and separately from the Church, but I don't see it. I see Israel as His intended bride, who unless she makes herself ready on His terms, will be rejected in the end.

I honestly believe it's [u]not[/u] a mistake that Paul wrote

Romans 4
[color=006699]11 And he received the sign of circumcision, [u]a seal of the righteousness of the faith[/u] which [i]he had yet[/i] being uncircumcised: that he might be [u]the father of all them that believe[/u], though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which [i]he had[/i] being [i]yet[/i] uncircumcised.
13 [b]For the promise, that he should be the heir of the [u]world[/u][/b], [i]was[/i] [u]not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith[/u]. [/color]


Please read v 13 slowly. Do you see these two things.... that Abraham through the righteousness of faith (that's the first) was [u]promised[/u] by God that he would be '[u]heir of the world[/u]' (that's the second)?


So, when in the OT there is a promise of calling the Israelites back to 'the land' there is a sense that either the land of Israel is going to be the 'whole earth', or, that people who come to faith - wherever they are in the world - and whether they are gentile or Jew\Israel - is where (geographically) they will inherit God.

Having said that, I do see the centrality of Jerusalem in many prophecies, and this was not lost on Paul. But, look again at Exodus 19

[color=006699]4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [i]how[/i] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you [u]unto myself[/u]. [/color]

Note that God was under the impression He had brought Israel to Himself. He knew that Israel (Jacob) had so wanted His blessing, that he'd bartered it away from its original owner. Did Israel's descendants want God enough to receive the same gift out of God's bounty to Jacob?

[color=006699]5 Now therefore, [u]if[/u] ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: [u]for all the earth [i]is[/i] mine[/u]:[/color]

If I could just stop there: at that time, what did 'because all the earth is mine' have to do with anything.... except what Paul picks up on.... perhaps that there would have been more land for an [i]obedient[/i] people who [i]had[/i] multiplied as the sand on the seashore etc.

[color=006699]6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [i]are[/i] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him. 8 And [u]all the people answered together[/u], and said, [b]All that the LORD hath spoken we will do[/b].[/color]

Now, that covenant they broke. Can we agree?

 2007/8/9 20:49





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