| Re: Gentile Tribulation Question|
Please bear with me here, as I don't have a direct reply to your leading post, mainly because I believe the question is built on a false premise.
What I want to communicate to you may come as a surprise, because you are living in amongst many believers-in-Christ who have been taught to believe that there is a significant difference between Jewish Christians and gentile Christians.
And more than that, you all have been taught not to distinguish between Jews who have come to saving faith in Jesus Christ, and Jews who have not.
You (I use 'you' in a generality because of your question, and not in any way in an accusatorial tone... please trust this.) have been led to believe - or, (if you personally, don't fit into this category), many many many believers are being taught that 'the Jewish people' have certain fulfilments of prophecy coming to them (in terms of unprecedented and irrevocable blessing) because they are Jewish ..... and this is the important bit ...... [i]completely independently of whether they receive Christ as Saviour[/i].
Now..... to divide this a little further.... some Christians who [i]seem[/i] to believe this, [i][b]do[/i][/b], when pressed, agree that the [i]only[/i] Jews who will be blessed in those ways, will [u]come into those blessings through faith in Christ[/u].
But..... there are many who don't see there is a total disconnect between God's word, and the belief being promoted in this decade, that 'Jews' - regardless of faith in Christ - will be blessed in a special way by God, because they (Jews) are 'God's chosen people'.
However, if you do a word search for the phrase 'chosen people' in the Bible, you won't find it free from conditions.
In fact, you'll find God chose individuals and His blessing is entirely conditional every time.
In Jacob's case, it was Jacob who made the conditions (paradoxically), but maybe this shows just how clearly Jacob understood God's requirements - even before God had given him the new name 'Israel'.
I've just started studying this topic properly, for the first time, having dabbled up till now, and having been brought up (within the faith) to understand that Jewish believers (whether all ethnically descended from Israel nor not) were the first participants in the New Covenant with God.
However, once it had dawned on Peter that God intended the exact same blessing on gentiles, there becomes absolutely no difference between the blessing on Jewish Christians and the blessing on gentile Christians [i]under the New Covenant[/i].
Saying this, I do [i]understand[/i] that a Jew may feel differently about Jesus because of the physical (or notionally physical) relationship with Him. But it is this connection which Paul writes against again and again (genealolgies) [i]because[/i] it engenders both strife and pride.
This is also why Paul is driven to write so much about being free from 'the law' - because being under the Old Covenant law as it was given, is not a part of Christianity.
What all believers should come to understand, though, is that the law [i]in spirit[/i], promotes Godliness. The problem according to the writer of Hebrews, though, is that it could [i]never[/i] take away sin.....
So, going back to the idea there is a difference between Jews [i]per se[/i] and gentile Christians, which is somehow supported by scripture, I am compltely convinced both by my Bible reading and the ministry of the Holy Spirit to my understanding, that that premise is a lie.
I wrote about a dream I had relating to this, having felt completely nauseated at the time, by the conversation a gentile believer in this false doctrine, was promoting to me after a wedding we both attended. I cannot emphasise how revolted I was during the conversation, nor how very much the dream confirmed this to me as God's word on it.
My reply is not an attempt to take the thread off course, but to refocus on a more proper question, the answer to which is in scripture.
I don't believe God brings 'tribulation' on saints, although we may struggle with much which He allows, because of our previous lives outside of faith in Jesus Christ.
I don't believe God visits 'wrath' on those who know Him - ever - although He may visit His wrath on those who make a claim to know him, but have never obeyed Him from their hearts. I believe that kind of visitation of wrath is reserved for the day of judgment, and is final.
However, if you look at Jewish history, you [i]do[/i] see God visiting His wrath on Israel, many many times, but, allowing a remnant to escape.
I do not believe this attitude of His has changed towards the Jews, however, there is, now, only one Way of escape, and that's Jesus.
Please look at these verses. Basically, if we\they don't give up sin, nothing [i]but[/i] wrath awaits.
15 "Son of man, your brethren, your relatives, your countrymen, and all the house of Israel in its entirety, [i]are[/i] those about whom the inhabitants of Jerusalem have said, 'Get far away from the LORD; this land has been given to us as a possession.'
16 "Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "Although I have cast them far off among the Gentiles, and although I have scattered them among the countries, yet I shall be a little sanctuary for them in the countries where they have gone." '
17 "Therefore say, 'Thus says the Lord GOD: "I will gather you from the peoples, assemble you from the countries where you have been scattered, and I will give you the land of Israel." '
18 "And they will go there, and they will take away all its detestable things and all its abominations from there.
19 "Then I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within them, and take the stony heart out of their flesh, and give them a heart of flesh,
20 "that they may walk in My statutes and keep My judgments and do them; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God.
21 "But [i]as for those[/i] whose hearts follow the desire for their detestable things and their abominations, I will recompense their deeds on their own heads," says the Lord GOD.
19 My little children, for whom I labor in birth again until Christ is formed in you,
20 I would like to be present with you now and to change my tone; for I have doubts about you.
21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons: the one by a bondwoman, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he [i]who was[/i] of the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and he of the freewoman through promise,
24 which things are symbolic. For these are the two covenants: the one from Mount Sinai which gives birth to bondage, which is Hagar --
25 for this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and corresponds to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children --
26 but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written: "Rejoice, O barren, [i]You[/i] who do not bear! Break forth and shout, You who are not in labor! For the desolate has many more children Than she who has a husband."
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac [i]was,[/i] are children of promise.
29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him [i]who was born[/i] according to the Spirit, even so [i]it is[/i] now.
30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.
That was a lot of scripture, but it is a tiny fraction of the general panorama in the Book.
I honestly don't know how anyone who reads those verses from Galatians, can still believe there is no connection between the condition of salvation through faith in Christ, and the receiving of God's promises to 'Israel'.
I hope that's making sense, when you've had time to think it through a bit.
Then, your question about gentile tribulation may be easier to answer.
| 2007/8/9 7:30|
| Re: Gentile Tribulation Question|
I dwell in the mist of the furnace of earthly tribulation today but I being dead live in spiritual peace and joy in Christ.
I believe the GREAT TRIBULATIONhas passed and the body of Christ was delivered out of the pangs.
If you live outside the body of Christ in darkness there will always be gashing of teeth.
| 2007/8/9 8:11||Profile|
North Central Indiana
Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!!!
The Revelation of Christ is written to the church. HIS first warnings are to the seven Christian churches in Asia. After that the Lord does NOT say and now the rest of this doesn't apply to Christians.
In fact as we see in the book of Romans we are in fact spiritual Jews.
Ro 11:17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree,
So yes the Book of Revelation is written to Jews "who are by faith saved by Christ"
And yes it is written in the Jewish Apocolyptic style.
To sum up the entire book is written to the church. It is Gods final word and warning to man to repent.
| 2007/8/9 9:34||Profile|
| Re: Dorcas|
Thanks...but what do we do with the prophecies to Israel in the OT that were never fulfilled? I come at the Scriptures with the grammatical-historical approach..and last night I read Zephaniah...What do I do with that entire book?
:) I guess I kinda changed the subject on my own q :)
| 2007/8/9 9:53||Profile|
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| Christian Jews and the Promises of God.|
Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.
i think it is important to note that not all Israel are the seed of Abraham so not all Jews will be Saved and also like sis Dorcas said, the blessings are with conditions. There also remains a distinct destiny or work which God must do for Israel (in her state of being Saved that is) and Jews (who are Saved) which can't be done through Gentiles. There is no distinction between Jew and Gentile as far as Salvation goes but just as surely as the destiny which God has written for me can't be fulfilled by say sister Dorcas, those things which pertain to Israel can't be fulfilled by Gentiles. There are some things yet which haven't been fulfilled such as in Zechariah, the cutting off of 2/3 of the Jews and the purification of the remainder, the destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 14 as it pertains to the restoration of Israel to her former borders not the sliver of land she is on now. The original land extends all the way to Damascus. This means that the Ezekiel 36 planting of Israel in the land has yet to be fulfilled. bro Katz spoke about this in some of his sermons and wrote of this also. If we read Ezekiel 36 we can see that there are some things about Israel now which haven't been fulfilled yet.
Grace and Peace is ours in Jesus.AMEN.
| 2007/8/9 11:00||Profile|
hmm...I don't know about the non-jewish tone to Revelation...I have read no commentary on Revelation (not even the notes on the bottome of my study Bibles...yet :) ) I believe it is a Jewish book b/c the language...
I understand what you mean, but we must remember that the Bible itself is a 'Jewish book' in that it's human writers were themselves Jewish. Also, take Matthew and Hebrews for a second. Those are were no doubt written for a Jewish audience, but this does not mean that we ignore these books, no we embrace them because they were written for us as well. Revelation may have a Jewish writer (John) and contain Jewish language, but no doubt this book was written for Christians.
and some of the promises (fulfilled) refered to in Revelation were promises made to the Jews and not the church (although we will take part in them as we have been grafted in, but we (the Church) are by no means the Israel the promises were given to back in the OT).
We must be very cautious about how we use certain words. For example, you said that some "promises were made to the Jews and not the church." This is misleading. First, in the OT times the Jews were known as "God's chosen." In the NT, the church is known as "God's chosen." Here is my point, the promises God made where to His chosen people (who in OT times were the Jews) and the fulfillment of those promises are to His chosen people (who in NT times are the church) There has always been and will always be one people of God. In the OT, the Jewish people were called "...a kingdom of priests and a holy nation." (Exodus 19:6) In the NT, Christians (both Jews and Gentiles) are called "...a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light." (1 Peter 2:9)
This is not replacement theology, this is fulfillment theology. The promises were made to the chosen.
And from the Biblical interp. study courses I am taking and books I am reading would confirm by the usage of language that Rev. would be Jewish book.
May I ask which study courses you are taking and which books you are reading? As a person who once believed in a pretrib rapture, I would encourage you to read that book by Hank Hanegraff I posted about.
| 2007/8/9 11:21||Profile|
| Re: Jay Saved|
hermeneutics by Virkler
Protestant Bib...by Ram
Interp. Bible ...Mickelson
Interp Holy Scripture...Dunnett
Also listened to the Herm. Course on Biblical Training and started one on another webite 3bible.com
I really really am trying to learn how to read Scripture with few presuppositions...
Also are there any other books like Hanks. I have listened to him a bunch but lately his arrogance and pride beams louder than his words, and I can't handle it. I read his Christianity in Crisis and was blessed. But upon listening to him (in the last two weeks even) his arrogance really really urks me. I am open to listening to any stand point or view, but I prefer to listen to people who shine like Christ, and it is of my opinion that Mr. Hannegraff seemed to have abandoned the humble nature of Christ
| 2007/8/9 11:32||Profile|
I understand what you mean about the humble nature of Christ. I personally have not listened to many Bible Answer Man programs and do not personally see an arrogance in Mr. Hanegraaff, I do understand that some bible teachers give off an 'I know more than you do' attitude.
Try [url=http://www.amazon.com/s/102-9906651-7724115?ie=UTF8&tag=mozilla-20&index=blended&link%5Fcode=qs&field-keywords=gary%20demar&sourceid=Mozilla-search]Gary DeMar.[/url]
Also, I have not read Knowing Scripture by Sproul, but I have heard that it is a great book to help understand scripture and its various forms. Basically, we read the Bible as we would any other book. A narrative section should be read literally, a prophesy section should be read to understand the symbols, etc.
| 2007/8/9 12:19||Profile|
| Re: Gentile Tribulation Question|
I was talking to a brother who was telling me that no gentiles will be saved during the Trib. Now I know that Revelation is a Jewish book, the Church is rarely mentioned after the first five chapters. But I not only do not see his view in Scripture, but I see Scripture that I believe contradict this mans theory (Revelation 7). SO I was just wondering where this view is found? [ Or where it originated?
I believe it was started simply because of the statement that the Prophecies say specifically that a remnant of Israel will survive the Trib.
Consequently, by rather blind assumption, they believe that no one else does.
In actuality, there will be many gentiles who do not believe who make it through to the Millenium. Some will simply take one look at Governmental control, and go into the deep forests, and survive...that is why so many are survivalists today...many have been to church, may have heard the views, may not believe in Christ, but won't submit to a government.
But everyone becomes a believer in Jesus at the end of the Trib, when they see Him, in all His Glory, accompanied by all of us.
Unfortunately, a lot of the survivors will have the mark, and be seperated out at the Lambs/Goats judgement.
Although I believe everyone must come to their own belief about the end of days, I myself have become a Pre-wrath believer.
If any Christians, whether Jew or Gentile by birth, make to the time just before the Vial judgements, it is my belief that Jesus will pull us out at that time, because the last thing He wants is a lot of tried and true believers, who survived the devil's machinations, and still believed, to enter into the Millenium.
For that, He needs only a remnant, and whatever gentile stragglers come out of the hills when all the shooting is over. Those with the mark...well, they won't be around very long.
| 2007/8/9 12:52||Profile|
Cache Valley, Utah
It seems that whenever Christians deal with the subject of Israel they always tend to lean toward two extremes.
On the one hand we have Replacement Theology, which says the Church has replaced Israel's position totally so that all promises (only the good ones) given to Israel apply now to the Church. Israel is seen as purely spiritual and no longer physical.
The other extreme is to reject Replacement Theology and embrace Dispensationalism, which basically makes Israel and the Church two completely separate entities without any relation to each other in respect to promises and destinies. This is just as false as Replacement Theology.
The truth is there is BOTH a grafting in of the Gentiles into the root of Abraham which makes the Church both Jew and Gentile without distinction, and there is also Israel as a physical nation to whom God still has a covenant with that He intends to keeps. I believe the confusion comes when we think that all Israel was cast off. The Bible doesn't say this, it rather says that SOME OF THE BRANCHES were cast off. Paul was living proof that God had not finished with His people, physical Israel. Some of them had rejected Jesus (most of them) but not all of them, and in doing so this enabled the Gentiles to be grafted into the commonwealth of Israel. God's covenant still remains with physical Israel, when those who have been cut off will once again be grafted BACK INTO the same root from which they were cut and to which the Gentiles are enjoying: the Church. In the end, all Israel will be saved, and the Church will be complete, one new man in Christ Jesus.
So it is not one extreme or the other. There is the Church consisting of Jews and Gentiles with no racial distinction; this is the Israel of God, which is the household of faith. But there is also physical Israel, the nation, to which God's covenant still stands. When Jesus Christ returns He will pour out the Spirit of grace and supplication upon THIS nation, and so all Israel shall be saved.
| 2007/8/9 14:18||Profile|