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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Gentile Tribulation Question

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Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Gentile Tribulation Question

I was talking to a brother who was telling me that no gentiles will be saved during the Trib. Now I know that Revelation is a Jewish book, the Church is rarely mentioned after the first five chapters. But I not only do not see his view in Scripture, but I see Scripture that I believe contradict this mans theory (Revelation 7). SO I was just wondering where this view is found? Or where it originated?....for backround info: I do not have a personal view on Revelation, In my study of Biblical interpretation I do believe that Revelation will be fulfilled literally, but as to what is literal and what is prophetic language I do not know.
So yeah thanks for looking and God Bless
Thom Provost

 2007/8/7 16:50Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question



[b]Amen ... Rev. 7 ... it don't get no plainer ... :-D [/b]

Rev.7
[1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.
[2] And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
[3] Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
[4] And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
[5] Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.
[6] Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
[7] Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.
[8] Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
[b][9] After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
[10] And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
[11] And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
[12] Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
[13] And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[14] And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
[15] Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple:[/b] and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
[16] They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
[17] For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


 2007/8/7 17:03Profile
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re: Gentile Tribulation Question


Not being one to believe in the pretrib nonsense being peddled to the "christian" today, these scriptures, only 2 of many, clearly state that God has a remnant here witnessing, and sharing the gospel.

Dan 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars forever and ever.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.

Blessings Greg


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Greg

 2007/8/7 20:18Profile
Provost
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Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Thank you for your responses, I still am wondering if anyone knows where this thought process (that not gentiles will be saved during the tribulation started). I have no personal opinion on the rapture as of yet pre-post-mid...whatever! But I do know there will be a tribulation, and cannot find anyone in church history who shares the view my brother in the Lord share (again no gentiles/non-jews will be saved during the trib)
God Bless
Thom Provost

 2007/8/8 10:59Profile
Eli_Barnabas
Member



Joined: 2005/2/16
Posts: 621
Cache Valley, Utah

 Re:

Hi Provost,

I think it's important that you lay aside any presuppositions that it appears you've picked up from the pretribulational camp, like Revelation being Jewish and the Church not found within it... these simply are not true. Revelation is not at all meant for only Jewish people but for all people, and the argument that the Church is not mentioned is a false conjecture. So before anything else, I think it would be good if you dropped these ideas.

I'm going to guess that the belief of no Gentiles being saved during the tribulation comes from the idea that the Holy Spirit is removed, which also is not true. Either that, or this man takes the verses that say "they repented not of their blasphemies" and interprets that to mean that nobody will ever repent. But those Scriptures from Daniel are a good example of saints shining amid those dark days.

Jesus did say, "the night cometh, when no man can work." (John 9:4)


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Eli Brayley

 2007/8/8 13:08Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
I was talking to a brother who was telling me that no gentiles will be saved during the Trib. Now I know that Revelation is a Jewish book, the Church is rarely mentioned after the first five chapters. But I not only do not see his view in Scripture, but I see Scripture that I believe contradict this mans theory (Revelation 7). SO I was just wondering where this view is found? Or where it originated?....for backround info: I do not have a personal view on Revelation, In my study of Biblical interpretation I do believe that Revelation will be fulfilled literally, but as to what is literal and what is prophetic language I do not know.



My first response is that you find this book:
[url=http://www.amazon.com/Apocalypse-Code-Bible-REALLY-Matters/dp/0849901847/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9906651-7724115?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1186598071&sr=8-1]The Apocolypse Code[/url] by Hank Hanegraaff. I am reading this book right now and I recommend it to everyone who is a pretrib dispensationalist or knows a pretrib dispensationalist.

From the jacket cover:
"Of the over four hundred verses in the book of Revelation, more than two-thirds allude to passages in the Old Testament. Why, then, do we treat Revelation as a special case? Why do we act as if the rules of exegesis do not apply, and look for the key to its mysteries in this morning's newspaper or some futurist's predictions?
Hank Hanegraaff argues that the book of Revelation is obscure to us because 'we have not sufficiently learned to read the Bible for all it's worth. When our interpretations are tethered to the hottest sensation rather than to the Holy Scripture, we are apt to grab at anything--and usually miss." The Apocalypse Code is a guide to holding on to what is true in the book of Revelation as in the rest of Scripture.
'throughout the history of the church, wrongheaded teachings have appeared that temporarily attracted a large following, only to become fading fads once the light of proper biblical interpretation illuminated. their error. A current example is dispensational pretribulation rapture theology promoted by such prophecy pundits as Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, John Hagee and others. For years now, I've been wondering what might convince such prophecy specialists to recognize that the eschatology they are foisting on the world is simply embarrassing to the church, and so prompt them to back our of their dispensational cul-desac. Hank Hanegraaff's The Apocalypse Code may well be the answer. I cannot recommend this book highly enough."

 2007/8/8 14:44Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

hmm...I don't know about the non-jewish tone to Revelation...I have read no commentary on Revelation (not even the notes on the bottome of my study Bibles...yet :) ) I believe it is a Jewish book b/c the language...and some of the promises (fulfilled) refered to in Revelation were promises made to the Jews and not the church (although we will take part in them as we have been grafted in, but we (the Church) are by no means the Israel the promises were given to back in the OT). And from the Biblical interp. study courses I am taking and books I am reading would confirm by the usage of language that Rev. would be Jewish book.
Again I could be wrong and I beg God to humble my heart to hear his truth.
Maybe I am running ahead of myself in my thinking...I guess I just wanted to see where this brother (he is a part of the Bretheren movement...side note) got this view, b/c he was teaching it emphatically.
Again Thanks a ton brothers
Thom

 2007/8/8 14:44Profile









 Re:

Smoky wrote:
Not being one to believe in the pretrib nonsense being peddled to the "christian" today, these scriptures, only 2 of many, clearly state that God has a remnant here witnessing, and sharing the gospel.



moe_mac wrote
Revelations was given by the King of Jews to John.


Unless a Jewish person has accepted Christ and has been convinced the King has already came and died and was resurrected and is returning for HIS bride the church what reason would they have to read revelations.

Revelations says one will be blessed by reading the book. The biggest blessing I could think of is missing all that tribulation.

As for the remnant that are witnesses, The people that do not take the mark and go against the antichrist politically will be saved. I'm not sure if that includes any gentiles, possibly only the Jewish people. It would be hard for me to believe any gentiles would speak out against the antichrist, most gentiles now want speak out against the antichrist politically for Jesus now, when there is no danger of persecution, but only for fear of being politically incorrect, so if they can't do it now, how can they then.

 2007/8/8 15:24
Smokey
Member



Joined: 2005/2/21
Posts: 417
Edmonton Alberta Cda.

 Re:


The new testament dispensation makes no distinction of nationality, but honors all who call upon the name of Jesus.

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

The first verse of Revelation clearly states that the book is for ALL His servants not just the Jews.

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Peoples other than Jews are indicated here, and in may other verses.


Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Blessings Greg ;-)


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Greg

 2007/8/8 19:06Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 The Blessing of the Revelation

greetings dear saints in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved.AMEN.

bro Moe

Quote:
Revelations says one will be blessed by reading the book. The biggest blessing I could think of is missing all that tribulation.



it seems to me the Revelation was written to the Believers, that is Christians that we may know what is to come before our Lord returns. This book concerned the early Church who believed that those things were upon them and conducted themselves as such. We are to do the same. If indeed the Church was not to be here in those days, then why write the book? The Church is not to be whisked away out of the trib and great trib, i believe the Church will be [i][b]preserved through[/b][/i] it. The matter of persecution for the early Church was an every day thing, if these saints suffered at the beginning, how much more will we be called to endure suffering now that we are at the end? We have also the testimonies in the scriptures of these saints who endured patiently and fainted not because God Preserved them through it all. We have evidence from other texts and compilations of the lives of these saints which prove to us God's ability to Preserve us in the midst of persecution and suffering...do we think the Arm of God is too short to preserve us even now? Dear saints let us not be so foolish! Dear saints i implore you to consider this, the Judgments which shall befall the earth are from God to the unrepentant, if we are Saved, what have we to fear? God will not pour boils on us or cause us to drink blood because we are His own and He will take care of us through it all. Yes the enemy and his minions will be very angry and persecute us, some of us will die as a result but if the Grace of God was sufficient for Peter, Paul, James, Andrew and all the others who suffered for His Sake, then surely such Grace is sufficient for me and it ought to be enough for us all!

the biggest blessing in reading the Revelation is the Joy, Peace and Confidence which comes from the Certainty of the return of our Lord to take His Throne and to Judge and of course to gather us to Himself. Dear saints we read all the plagues and things which must precede this and think we will partake in it and we won't, not because we won't be here, but because God will preserve us through it all.

i fear that the whole issue of making Israel as she is now, the fulfilment of what was spoken through Ezekiel is in error. i feel also that the idea of being raptured out of here is a reflection of what we would do if we were God so that people would like us. it is also an indictment of how poor our view of God is as Judge also and Perfector of our Faith. Saints our Lord doesn't take in junk, He makes sure that what is drawn to Him is Purified thoroughly by fire and while the Trib is a period of Judgment on the enemy and we are not partakers of this, it is for us a period of purification and proving what manner of Christian we are. it is easy to be a Christian when all is well, but when the heat is on is when the true depth of our Faith is revealed and i fear that many among us will be found wanting and fall away from the Faith. i fear that the great falling away Paul spoke of has to do with this notion of Israel now being prophecy fulfilled (an Examination of Ezekiel 36 will show that this is not the case, too many things have yet to occur which should have occured already) and the idea of being raptured out of here. When these things fail, i believe we will see the great falling away. Paul himself makes it plain that the coming of Christ will not be secret but all men will see it and the revelation of the man of sin must precede it which means the Church is yet here. i am convinced that the rapture if it is to happen the way it is commonly said it will, will involve far less numbers than we think , or that the rapture (i lean toward this more) is at His return at the end of the outpouring of the Bowls of Judgment of the Father.

Dear saints i may well be wrong and if i am i pray God set me straight because i don't want to languish in deception. if you are wrong i pray God do the same. May God set us straight!AMEN.

Grace and PEace are ours in Jesus.AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/8/8 22:10Profile





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