God finally gave up after 4000 years and chose to birth His Son in the ones that He would cause to believe that Jesus Christ is His Son.
Wow... thats a poor understanding of scripture!
God did not "give up". Christ and his sacrifice for mankind was prophecied from the very beginning of time, therefore, it was His plan from the foundation of the earth.
God didnt just wake up one day and realize that we were never gonna "get it"...
And He didnt "birth His Son"... His Son already existed. Jesus humbled Himself and became flesh. Jesus has always existed. John 1:1
| 2007/8/8 8:03|
Bowmansville Penssylvania USA
Wow... that's a poor understanding of scripture
I too was alarmed by that statement. Jesus is referred to as the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world. I don't understand God's timing on the whole thing and why He waited for 4000 years to send Jesus into the world but I do know that He had it all planned out from the start.
We cannot be a sinner and also be justified by Christ.
How so? Why then did Paul profess himself to be the chiefest (KJV) of sinners? I'm an american, but I don't do what the "normal" american does. For instance, I don't go to the theater, I don't go to the bar, I don't go to the beach where the people are all parrading around half naked, I don't eat pizza :-P- but that doesn't change the fact that I'm still american. If someone has no concept of how much of an unworthy sinner they are then I wonder whether or not they've ever been born again.
To say that after I'm saved I'm no longer a sinner is to say that I no longer have need of Christ. Being a sinner is totally different from being a person who lives in willful sin and is at perfect enmity with God.
It is good to note however that one who lives in constant sin is [i]also[/i] referred to as a sinner, yet in a different sense. One who's life is consumed by sin. Who commits sin willfully and constantly inspite of the knowledge of truth.
There is a [b]HUGE[/i] difference between [i]that[/i] and the way Paul used the title in referrence to himself.
We as the children of God are saints, yes. [i]But[/i] we are also sinners still too. Unless Paul didn't understand this matter as well as we do! :-o
| 2007/8/8 8:43||Profile|
| Re: Question|
I have a question...
Why is it that when holiness is discussed, its always about "them" out there? Or the discussion is about, "how unholy the church is..." or I can't believe how other Christians can use certain scriptures as an excuse to live unholy lives!" Or maybe its...
"God I thank you that I'm not like those other lukewarm Christians, I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't read Harry Potter, I am disciplined enough to have a daily devotional life, I have surrendered all to you Oh GOD!"
I think we would all agree that holiness is Christ. He is the standard (which is a poor way of putting it) His life, His character, Him...He is our holiness!
I don't care where we are in are walk, and how mature we think we are, if we beheld Christ in all His glory, we would all fall down at His feet and cry, woe is me I am undone.
Every preacher on this web site would do the same. Every man and woman of God from the beginning of time would fall down at His feet and cry "woe is me, I am undone.
He is the standard. No man, or man's teaching is the standard. Christ himself is the standard, and no matter how far we get in this life in being conformed to His image, we are still light years from where He is...He is God you know.
So I think we would do well to not be like the pious Pharisee and pray with ourselves, but we should be like the humble man who knew who he was apart from Christ and cried " God be merciful to me, a sinner"
He is the one that went home justified. He is the one that went home with the power of God in his life.
| 2007/8/8 9:22|
I dont know... I havent gotten that impression from anyone here. Heck, I'm arguing that none of us here are sinless, especially me.
Be careful that you dont become a pharisee calling others "pharisees".
| 2007/8/8 10:51|
Heck, I'm arguing that none of us here are sinless, especially me.
Be careful that you dont become a pharisee calling others "pharisees".
| 2007/8/8 10:57||Profile|
To them who argue that since Paul only mentioned struggling with his flesh once in scripture (which isnt true)... if we dont struggle with the flesh, and with sin, on a daily basis... why did Jesus say:
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross [b]daily[/b], and follow me.
Taking up our cross daily means that every single day we must gain the victory over sin, thru the Spirit. There [b]IS[/b] a struggle. We're in a war. Unfortunately we may not win every battle, but there is grace from the throne above. Sometimes I lose yardage... every day is not a first down for me. I'm glad some of you live in that kind of victory, but average joe's like me have to fight and claw for every inch we gain down field.
And when I die and meet my Lord face to face... thats when I'll do my touchdown dance.
I'm just wondering if when I get there... should I just kick the extra point, or go for two??
| 2007/8/8 11:10|
To them who argue that since Paul only mentioned struggling with his flesh once in scripture (which isnt true)...
I don't know...maybe I haven't seen it or can't remember it right now, but can you please show me another example from Scripture where Paul laments his inability to have victory over the flesh?
Taking up our cross daily means that every single day we must gain the victory over sin, thru the Spirit. There IS a struggle. We're in a war. Unfortunately we may not win every battle, but there is grace from the throne above. Sometimes I lose yardage... every day is not a first down for me. I'm glad some of you live in that kind of victory, but average joe's like me have to fight and claw for every inch we gain down field.
This is why I say you misunderstand the position of those who believe that the Scripture clearly teaches entire sanctification. In no way do I believe that you will ever on this earth get to a place where you CANNOT sin. As Leonard Ravenhill said, "It's not the inability to sin, it's the ability NOT to sin." It doesn't mean you won't be tempted (our Lord Jesus was tempted), it doesn't mean life won't be a struggle. But the Lord can do such a work in your heart, and His presence can be so real in your life, and the love of God can be so perfected in your soul, that you wll be able to live in victory daily. Can you fall from being purely sanctified? Yes you can. It's a daily walk with the Lord, and you always have to be on your guard, taking heed lest you fall. But I don't know about you, but it would be a little hard to sin for me if I were in the very presence of Christ.
I wonder what you would say about the following verses (which I previously pointed out)?
"Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblamably we behaved ourselves among you that believe..."
"And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offense toward God, and toward men."
"Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
"Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Savior, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen."
Especially this one:
"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from [b]all[/b] filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God."
Remember, "all" means all. :-)
| 2007/8/8 12:44||Profile|
a few questions for you.
1) I walk in holiness with a clear conscience towards God with no willful/deliberate/continual/known sin in my life. How is this different then what you are saying, if it is. I do not claim complete sanctification, should I tag on the label? Would i need to add an extra point of doctrine on to the reality of my walk first?
2) You mention that people misunderstand what is spoken of when people are talking entire sanctification, Christian perfection and sinless perfection. Perhaps you do to, as do I, because we all START with suppositions of what holiness, perfection, etc mean and build are case without talking about if our base definition is hermeneutically correct throughout the NT.
3) Someone can fall from complete sanctification? If complete sanctification is defined as some very well known members of SI have been defining it lately this is quite absurd. If someone "falls from complete sanctification" then they are no different then the person walking with no know sin in their life for a period of time and then having a revelation or exposing of something in them that is fallen short... only they piously take up the label of "completely sanctified" as religion would have it. (When in reality there is no difference to this supposed state they were in other then the label attached to it and we all have read that the kingdom of God is not in word but in power)
4) I would like to leave this quote from Greg Gordon
Yes we can be free from conscious sin for a short time but unconscious sin will damn us to hell just as easily. Oh thank God for His mercy and death on the cross of Jesus Christ. There will be a day when we are glorified in the Son and will be free from sin fully.
I look forward to your answers, perhaps I have a misconception of what some mean by using certain terms... perhaps some just throw labels around loosely.
In Christ - Jim
| 2007/8/8 13:00|
Here is a question that gets to the root of this issue:
If we cannot stop sinning (sin no more) which sin cannot we stop? Specifically, which sin can't we stop?
If we cannot live righteous and godly in this present life, that implies that we must always be unrighteous and ungodly in this present life. But what form of unrighteousness and ungodliness can't we give up?
What sin, what unrighteousness, what ungodliness can't Jesus save us from??
Let's be specific.
| 2007/8/8 14:37|
Los Angeles, California
You must realize the difference between conscious and unconscious sin - because the Scriptures make a clear distinction. You will always have sin and unrighteousness because you will always fall short of the [b]infinite[/b] perfection, faith and Glory of God and anything less according to Scripture is sin. You must be saved from all known sin and walk in that state or you are not saved. If you walk with a clean heart, a pure conscience and free from any known sin, loving God will all of your heart mind, soul and strength then you are living righteous and godly in this life - this is the normal Christian life - walking in Romans Chapter 8 as a living reality in your life.
| 2007/8/8 14:59||Profile|