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intrcssr83
Member



Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re: Christianity: A Set of Rules??

While it's true that biblical Christianity is neither legalism nor licentiousness, I'd be more concerned for the person who outwardly professes to be a Christian, yet does so while kicking and screaming in antagonism against those who are genuinely bearing fruit.


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Benjamin Valentine

 2007/8/3 9:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:
But I totally agree that anyone who see's Christianity as merely consisting in doing right and avoiding wrong is totally missing the very essense of Christianity - a love relationship with Jesus Christ.



But the foundation of that relationship is not my love for Him, but His love for me. We must remember that love is still law. My love for Jesus can neither save me, nor keep me in relationship with Him. He is the faithful bridegroom that will never leave me nor forsake me.

Quote:
I think some people hate the word "law" more then they hate the word "hell-fire"



Funny thing is, Paul really hated the improper use of the law also.

I do not think you understand why we rail so much against the law, as it pertains to being in right relationship with God. As Paul asked,

Quote:
Do you not hear the law?



Yes, I do, here is what it says...

You do not love God with all you heart, soul, mind and strength, and you do not love your neighbor as yourself...
You are an idolater, you are a blasphemer, you are a Sabboth breaker, you dishonor you father and mother, you are a murderer, you are a thief, you are a liar, you are an adulterer, and you will always be thus in my sight because I require perfect obedience and I offer no mercy. You are judged and condemned and you will suffer the wrath of God for eternity. You have no hope!

So I run to Jesus (like the city of refuge)...who is my righteousness, apart from the law. This does not lead to lawlessness because He has promised to fufill the righteousness of the law in my life...which is to love Him with all that I am, and to love my neighbor as myself.

Yes, we have been saved unto obedience, but that obedience neither saves me nor keeps me in right relationship with God.

I love (obey) Him, because He first Loved me.

 2007/8/3 10:48









 Re:

Quote:
Yes, we have been saved unto obedience, but that obedience neither saves me nor keeps me in right relationship with God.



I am not a hyper-calvinist, and in the interest of honesty, there is a human work that we take part in with obediance. WE are to bring forth fruit worthy of repentance.

Notice what Paul writes smack dab in the middle of his rebuke to the Galatians for being yoked again under the law.

Galatians 5:
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.


16So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Why did he warn them that their behavior would cause them not to inherit the kingdom. Why didn't he give them some theological treatise on how they were saved by grace despite of there lack of obediance... because it "neither saves them or keeps them in right relationship with God"

In Christ - Jim

 2007/8/3 11:18
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I agree that the word "law" and "commandments" have a ring to it, a very negative one. I think some people hate the word "law" more then they hate the word "hell-fire".

Yet the scriptures do speak of the Law of Love and the Commandments of Christ, and also obviously of "hell-fire".



The reason would be because if we are to have bible theology, we should strive to use Bible words and phrases when we can. Where in the Bible do you find the language of "the law of this" or the "law of that?" [b]If you're not careful you may end up importing a completely new idea into the scriptures. In other words, rather than deriving your doctrine from the Bible, you would be importing doctrine into the Bible. [/b] I'm just saying that is a possibility, if you don't guard yourself.


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Josh Parsley

 2007/8/3 11:23Profile









 Re:

I am not a hyper-Calvinist, nor am I a Calvinist, nor am I an Armenian, etc. I really do not like tags...and in saying that we are not kept by our obedience, I am not saying that we do not have a part to play. In just saying that we obey God, I am saying we are "doing" something.

But our obedience is imperfect (and anyone who says otherwise is simply not being honest) therefore, our obedience is not the sustaining factor in this relationship. It is His faithfulness, and mercy.

Quote:
Why did he warn them that their behavior would cause them not to inherit the kingdom? Why didn't he give them some theological treatise on how they were saved by grace despite of there lack of obedience... because it "neither saves them or keeps them in right relationship with God"



First of all that is not what I said, and actually Paul does give a "theological treatise" back in Romans about how a man is saved and kept apart from his obedience to the law.

This issue in Galatians is one of righteousness. Real honest to goodness day to day righteousness. How is the righteousness of the law made real in my life? Paul does not say it is by do's and don'ts. He says it is by faith, and he actually says it is something that we have to wait for. It is something we hope for and yearn for. Everything God has for us is given to us by a promise. Even righteousness. And we usually have to go through suffering to obtain it. (Romans 5)

Quote:
5For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.




Quote:
19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.



And what does he say after that about those who are Christ's...those who are in Christ? Christians?


Quote:
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.



Just as he says in Romans, Colossians, and in the beginning of Galatians...

We have been buried with him in baptism. We died with Him. We are dead, and our life is now hid with Christ in God. We have been crucified, our flesh is crucified. A Christian cannot live in the flesh, we are a new creation.

Now that's either true or its not.

They that do not have the Spirit of Christ, live in the flesh. There is no lusting of the Spirit against the flesh and the flesh against the Spirit because they are not in Christ and Christ is not in them. But if Christ be in you than you are a new creation.

Quote:
13For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.



I have no problem being exhorted to love the brethren, and being taught how now to use my liberty. That is what Paul is doing here.

 2007/8/3 13:24
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
am not a hyper-Calvinist, nor am I a Calvinist, nor am I an Armenian, etc.



When I was living in Russia, I once met a hyper-Armenian who was trying to get a work visa to come to America. He had brought his wife and kids to Moscow and would wait in line in front of the US Embassy for hours and hours. He could speak English very well, and his name was Arturo.

This was years ago.

:-)


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Paul Frederick West

 2007/8/3 13:40Profile









 Re:

Mahoney - thanks for the clarification on what you were saying. I agree, (as I hope all believers do) that we are kept by Gods faithfulness.. with a pracitcal working out of our faith in obediance.

be blessed - Jim

 2007/8/3 13:44









 Re:

Quote:
Jesse said: I agree that the word "law" and "commandments" have a ring to it, a very negative one. I think some people hate the word "law" more then they hate the word "hell-fire".

Yet the scriptures do speak of the Law of Love and the Commandments of Christ, and also obviously of "hell-fire".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Josh said: The reason would be because if we are to have bible theology, we should strive to use Bible words and phrases when we can. Where in the Bible do you find the language of "the law of this" or the "law of that?" If you're not careful you may end up importing a completely new idea into the scriptures. In other words, rather than deriving your doctrine from the Bible, you would be importing doctrine into the Bible. I'm just saying that is a possibility, if you don't guard yourself.



Josh, what are you talking about? I must be mistaken as to what you are saying, because it sounds like your saying it is unbiblical to talk about the commandments of Christ and to talk about the law of love, as if speaking like that is against "biblical theology". Surely that is not what you mean.

Surely you are not advocating that Christianity has no laws, and that lawlessness is Christianity??

Becareful not to import the doctrine of antinomianism and lawlessness into the bible! Because lawlessness cannot be found there and it does not belong there!

The bible explicitly talks about the commandments of Christ and explicitly talks about the law of love.

I am not importing a new idea of Christ having commandments, and love fullfilling the law, into the bible! I can't add to the bible what is already there!!

Surely you did not mean the "bible theology" says nothing about the commandments of Christ, and nothing about the law of love. Surely you did not mean that the bible never talks about Christ having commandments, and love fullfilling the law??

Don't you see how a biblical term would deffinately be talking about Christ's commandments, and how one who talks about the law of love teachings the explicit teachings of Holy Scripture??

[b]THE COMMANDMENTS OF CHRIST[/b]


Joh 14:15 - If ye love me, [b]keep my commandments[/b].

Joh 15:10 - If ye [b]keep my commandments[/b], ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Rom 8:2-4 For the [b]law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus[/b] hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of [b]the law might be fulfilled in us[/b], who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

1Jo 2:3 - And hereby we do know that we know him, [b]if we keep his commandments. [/b]

1Jo 2:4 - He that saith, I know him, and [b]keepeth not his commandments[/b], is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 3:22 - And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because [b]we keep his commandments[/b], and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

1Jo 3:24 - And he that [b]keepeth his commandments[/b] dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

1Jo 5:2 - By this we know that we love the children of God, when we [b]love God, and keep his commandments[/b].

1Jo 5:3 - For this is the love of God, that we [b]keep his commandments[/b]: and his commandments are not grievous.

2Jo 1:6 - And this is love, that we [b]walk after his commandments[/b]. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it


[b]THE LAW OF LOVE[/b]

Mt 19:19 - Thou shalt love

Mt 22:37 - Thou shalt love

Mt 22:39 - Thou shalt love

Mr 12:30 - thou shalt love

Mr 12:31 - Thou shalt love

Lu 10:27 - Thou shalt love

Ro 13:9 - Thou shalt love

Rom 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to [b]love[/b] one another: for he that [b]loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[/b]

Ga 5:14 - For all the [b]law[/b] is fulfilled in one word, even in this; [b]Thou shalt love[/b] thy neighbour as thyself.

Jas 2:8 - If ye fulfil the royal [b]law[/b] according to the scripture, [b]Thou shalt love[/b] thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have [b]purified your souls in obeying the truth[/b] through the Spirit unto unfeigned [b]love of the brethren[/b], see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently.

 2007/8/4 2:57
JelloTaster
Member



Joined: 2006/11/6
Posts: 44
Winnipeg MB

 Re:

The way I see it, it's like in my marriage. I am not allowed to have relationships with other women. It's a rule and I don't think anyone would disagree with that. Now, does this rule make me feel trapped or under a law? No! I love my wife!

When it comes to our faith, there are many rules (law of love) to follow and as has been said, if we love the Lord, we will obey His commands. The beautiful thing is that when we break a command, there is forgiveness. When people speak of Christianity as a set of rules, I think that's something they forget about. Chris


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Chris Wiebe

 2007/8/4 10:46Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
Josh, what are you talking about? I must be mistaken as to what you are saying, because it sounds like your saying it is unbiblical to talk about the commandments of Christ and to talk about the law of love, as if speaking like that is against "biblical theology". Surely that is not what you mean.

Surely you are not advocating that Christianity has no laws, and that lawlessness is Christianity??



Uh, well I had a big elaborate post explaining what I meant but I accidentally closed it!

Here is the short version:
I can see you didn't know what I was getting at.

All I am saying is make sure you don't make up concepts and put them in the Bible. I didn't say you did that, I'm saying guard against it. When possible use a phrase or word that is specifiably used in the Bible. That way we can examine the Bible and see if you are using the phrase or word correctly. We can't do that what you are talking about isn't in the Bible. It's profitable for all, especially those who have a different background that we use words and phrases found in the Bible. Many on message boards come from different prospectives. That way someone who comes from a different prospective can look at what you said, then read the Bible and say "Hey, that is just what he was saying." If you are sitting in a room that most everyone has the same prospectives then you can use your specific theological jargon and everyone knows what you mean. The phrase "The law of love" isn't in the Bible.

Really what was in the forefront of my mind when I posted that was the prosperity merchants. They love to say "This is the law of..." then they think that if they do a certain thing (say "I want a new car" twenty times) they will automatically get it. Rather than what you call the "Moral Government of God" they would call the "Financial Government of God."

Our view of salvation is quite different on many particulars. So, maybe I should have just not said anything. I'll ask this though, "What is the difference between the 'laws' in the OT and the 'laws' in the NT?"

My understanding is that rather than it being "rules" that are pressed upon from the outside, it is a new nature that springs "rules" from the inside (new heart).


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Josh Parsley

 2007/8/4 13:55Profile





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