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 A Letter from George Whitefield to John Wesley: "No, dear Sir, you mistake."

You can read it here:

http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/wesley.htm

What are your thoughts on it, after reading it?

God bless you! -Abraham

 2007/7/29 21:24
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re: A Letter from George Whitefield to John Wesley: "No, dear Sir, you mistake.&

I cannot help but noticing, but do you, dear brother, simply worship the controversy of Calvinism v. Arminianism? Most of your posts that I have seen thus far on this forum have been geared towards simply stirring that pot. They don't seem geared towards the edification of the body, but simply promoting debate over finer points of theology.


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Jimmy H

 2007/7/29 23:02Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Perhaps he's like a polar balance to Mr. Morell (Lazarus)? I see about a one-for-one match taking place, but I could be wrong. ;-)

I believe both of these dear brothers see a lot at stake with these sides of theology. One fears people are getting falsely converted by not believing they are truly unacceptable. The other seems concerned that people slant God's character by limiting the atonement.

A balance taking place?

 2007/7/29 23:33Profile
IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

Brethren

Greetings in Jesus' Name by Whose Blood we are Saved. AMEN.

i hope that in all these discussions on these 2 doctrines that both are in the word and thus both are valid...simultaneously. it's not one vs the other but one along with the other which gives us the complete view of Salvation. the fact that both are in the word lends credibility to them both. somehow in our natural minds we think them to be mutually exclusive but they aren't clearly because God has them both in the word. Paul understood predestination and man's free will in all this and i bless God i do understand this to the degree needed for me to function without trippin about it.

it's not one, but both. i know i came out leaning more toward what some have called Calvinism (whatever that is) only for the purpose of bringing that aspect of it to the fore to balance out the Araminianism stance. Ultimately because both are for the Eternal Purpose of God they depend on Him and if we can begin to perceive the Eternal Purpose, we will start to see this unison of predestination and free will in that. if we remain in our carnality we will forever (well for a long time anyway) go around in circles and miss the point...then again we may be destined to so do till God extends Grace to bring us out of that cycle :-P like Katz said once, *whistle* "what are you gonna do with that hotshot?"

Grace and Peace be ours in Jesus' Name. AMEN.


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Farai Bamu

 2007/7/29 23:52Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Somewhat agreed, Mr.Man.

Except that many, many of our brothers believe that Calvinism (as it was taught by Calvin, and not Beza) IS the balance between Arminianism and Stoicism.

There is a balance, which, as far as I can see, does not include Arminianism, per se. Rather, it is this:

1.) All who will repent and believe and persevere to the end in faith shall be saved to the uttermost.
2.)All who will be saved to the uttermost were from the foundations of the earth God's elect and, as it says in Romans 8, were predestined and enabled by God's grace to do all that was required of them.

Yet I am fresh in Christ and am growing with all in grace.

Grace for holiness! Grace for holiness! And there is no holiness which is loveless. Amen.

 2007/7/30 0:42Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

A balance taking place?



I'm not so sure it's a balance. There have been Calvinist on this forum for years now. And Jesse's simply swallowed Finney's moral government theology... a theology, thank God, not too many on this forum have embraced. The balance to Calvinism would be Arminianism... not Finney's theology :)

I used to take serious issues with those holding to classical five-point Calvinism. However, as time has gone by, the Lord has tempered me more to see that both Calvinistic and Arminian theology both in the end, promote the same thing. Both systems of theology promote holy living, and produce saints who will endure until the end, and recognize that it is by grace through faith that we are saved.

Sometimes I have a good laugh reading how much Whitefield and Wesley took each other to task and virtually dueling it out with pistols at high-noon. Though I'm far from an expert on their personal relationship, I think a lot of the shots they took at each other over the years was simply employing various rhetorical tools that helped further their argument. Sometimes it's construed to say they were mean-spirited towards each other, and perhaps sometimes they were, but, most of the time, I think they were just making sport.

So long as both systems of theology stay in balance, I have nothing wrong with either. It's the extremes that I worry about. In the Calvinistic camp, I worry about those who hold to some forms of dispensational theology, which tends to promote anti-nomianism and a watered down Calvinism i.e. cheap grace/easy-belivism. But in the Arminian camp, equally as threatening are some of the more legalistic "holiness" groups that create modern day Pharisees (though Calvinistic groups haven't been without these folks either).

Either way, groups on both sides have messed up understandings of God's sovereignty, human will, grace, faith, repentance, etc.


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Jimmy H

 2007/7/30 17:14Profile
theopenlife
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

I read in a book by J.I. Packer something of worth, that the grounds for peace between Wesley and Whitefield and the reason why both could preach together, was that they resolved to preach "all who repent and believe will be saved," rather than "only so many can be saved" or "all people ever can be saved".

Promote love, holiness, and peace.

 2007/7/30 17:22Profile
LoveHim
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Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
I read in a book by J.I. Packer something of worth, that the grounds for peace between Wesley and Whitefield and the reason why both could preach together, was that they resolved to preach "all who repent and believe will be saved," rather than "only so many can be saved" or "all people ever can be saved".

brother mike, that is an excellent quote from mr packer. i have been thinking the over the last week what similarities the calvanists and non-calvinist share. and i believe that this quote was another example of how we can hold hands and preach Jesus Christ and Him crucified together. thank you brother.

 2007/7/30 19:09Profile









 Re:

Quote:
So long as both systems of theology stay in balance, I have nothing wrong with either. It's the extremes that I worry about. In the Calvinistic camp, I worry about those who hold to some forms of dispensational theology, which tends to promote anti-nomianism and a watered down Calvinism i.e. cheap grace/easy-belivism. But in the Arminian camp, equally as threatening are some of the more legalistic "holiness" groups that create modern day Pharisees (though Calvinistic groups haven't been without these folks either).

Either way, groups on both sides have messed up understandings of God's sovereignty, human will, grace, faith, repentance, etc.



Well said... (concerning errors in some camps on both sides)

I believe Whitefield brings up some very serious problems in Wesley's theology. I could just ignore it and try to to balance it. But, they contradict one another concerning God's election.

God bless you! -Abraham

 2007/7/30 19:11
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

they contradict one another



No doubt, they do. And I would contradict Wesley on some points as well.


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Jimmy H

 2007/7/30 19:18Profile





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