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reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
brother mike (reformer) and moemac,

brothers, can i first say that no one is against you guys as if you are the target. ijavascript: justReturn()
:-)

believe that the thread got locked because the moderator wants to see talk of scriptures or doctrine, but not politics. (please forgive me if i'm wrong, but i believe that i read that from the moderator).

i agrre that we should not say whether one is saved or not as if we truly know. but we can judge the fruits of the life and are actually commanded to do so. but i would never say that because of a person worshipping the Lord with other believers in a building or home, that they are not saved.

like i said before brothers, i personally believe that a home fellowship is more biblical in that it is usually more..
* each other oriented
* every member participating
* very cost effective (no salaries, morgages, vans, budgets, and programs to pay for)
* real (it's hard to just "come to church" and slip by unnoticed when there is only 15 people)
* fellowship oriented (eating meals together and worshipping together in a close atmosphere brings unity)
* backed a lot by scripture

like i said, i'm not against people meeting in buildings, i just believe that the NT shows us a better way to meet.
Quote:
No one yet has mentioned anything about tithing or giving? If a few meet in a house, where do the offerings go? Are we not to support those that labor for the truth. Which is a command.

brother reformer, i was gonna let this go by because tithing is a personal preference and it has been discussed on here plenty of times. but because you mentioned it like 3 times, i will try to address it for tithing and giving for you in a brief way.

brother tithing was a law given to the jews. the NT is explicitly clear that we are not under the OT law, but Christ has fulfilled the law. He was born of a woman, under the law, to redeem those under the law. (gal 4) the purpose of the law was to point us to Christ, but Christ is the end of the law. we who are born again, by His Spirit, love the Lord with all we have and love others as ourselves and thus fulfill the law (matt 22). what was the purpose of the tithes in the OT? to support the levites and priests who didn't work. this was the God ordained way to feed them. who is the priesthood in the NT?? pastors of "churches"?? by no means. we believers are a royal priesthood and a holy nation (1 peter 2).

brother, let me ask you a few questions...
* do you observe the sabbath as they did in the OT??
* do you have to be circumsised?
* do you have to follow the dietary laws of the OT??
why not? because we are not under the law my friend. if you say, well abraham tithed before there was a law, then let me ask you a few more questions...
* does the scripture ever say he was commanded to tithe??
* did abraham tithe off of his possessions or the spoils from the war?
* does scripture say if it was something to continually be done??
no, it was a one-time act that abraham offered up to the Melchieldiek(sp), when he was on his way back from rescuing lot. he offered the spoils from the war and not his personal possessions. i am only recapping all this because it is a common objection to not tithing.

now, what do about tithing and the "church". first, if we meet in homes like the NT believers did, then there is no need to have tithing (we have no pastors on "staff" and no overhead like morgage and building programs and stuff like that). it is only when we take on extra possessions like a building, vans, staff, etc that we need to start someway of bringing in money to pay for this stuff. that is the birth of the modern day tithing doctrine and why we need it today.

is giving scriptural?? yes, yes, yes. personally i do not believe that tithing is scriptural as i have listed a few reasons above, but i fully support giving to support the poor, homeless, orphans, struggling believers and missionaries (which are kinda like apostles of the NT). how should we give? gratefully and with a cheerful heart. is there any percentage that we have to give? no, but as the Lord has spoken to your heart (as the believer has purposed in his heart). but as i have said above, if we meet in homes, parks, or in the street, there is no need of a tithing law and then the money being given freely can go directly to what it was intended to go to in the first place...the true ministry (poor, widows, orphans, missionaries, etc).

but brother, if you believe you should give 10%, then by all means, obey that. i would just warn you not to try to place all believers under a law that we were never meant to be under in the first place.

"if you allow yourself to be circumcised, then you are obligated to keep the whole law. you have become estranged from Christ, you who attemt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" (gal 5:3,4). i am not saying you are not saved, please don't come away thinking that i am saying that. all i am saying is if we allow ourselves to be placed under law in one area of our life, then we are obligated to keep the whole law. if you believe you should tithe, then brother do so in faith. but please brother, don't try to place other believers under the law. money is a matter of the heart. our money, time and resources are all God's and should be held loosely so that when God desires whatever He desires from us, then we should offer it up to Him freely. brother, it is all His, not just 10%.

brothers, i hope that you can hear what i am saying to you. i appreciate your guys' heart to love God and love others. that is the most important thing.






Thanks brother Phil, Let me address I think the most important for our hearts sake. No I don't think that you meant that I am not saved. :-) :-)

I will have to come back later and respond, brother but I will!

:-o

 2007/8/2 20:45Profile









 Re:

LoveHIM wrote:
No one yet has mentioned anything about tithing or giving? If a few meet in a house, where do the offerings go? Are we not to support those that labor for the truth. Which is a command.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
brother reformer, i was gonna let this go by because tithing is a personal preference and it has been discussed on here plenty of times. but because you mentioned it like 3 times, i will try to address it for tithing and giving for you in a brief way.


Response:New Teastament Jesus speaking:
Luke 11:42
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
KJV

2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
KJV


Luke 12:33-34
33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will not be exhausted, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


It was established in Old Testament Law.

Rom 2:14-16

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.
KJV



 2007/8/2 21:22









 Re:

Quote:
Jimmie you don't remember saying this: "If you don’t do the above you don’t love as Christ commands"



No, brother I have poorly miscommunicated what I meant there. i was typing that in response to what you wrote here...

Quote:
Thats one of the many benefits that come from being part of a local fellowship. To love others as Christ commands. We can't love those only who we feel agree with our way of thinking, what does that profit us?



I apologize for the lack of clarity and undue harm it may have caused (we already have a sensitive enough discussion).

I was simply responding to the implication in your post that I was not part of a local fellowship because I did not do Sunday/Wed/pot lucks, etc... and therefore did not love as Christ commands. It was not meant tor eflect on what you DO do, rather on what I DONT do. I hope that makes sense.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/8/2 22:01









 Re:

BTW-

Our giving goes to feed and clothe those we minister to, to the orphans, the widows and to biblically sound missions organizations such as

[url=http://www.shepherdserve.org/]http://www.shepherdserve.org/[/url]

This is a blessing to know it is not supporting the apostate missionaries and church plants that our old assemblies of God feelowship did with the money.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/8/2 22:04
reformer
Member



Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764


 Re:

Quote:

jimdied2sin wrote:
Quote:
Jimmie you don't remember saying this: "If you don’t do the above you don’t love as Christ commands"



No, brother I have poorly miscommunicated what I meant there. i was typing that in response to what you wrote here...

Quote:
Thats one of the many benefits that come from being part of a local fellowship. To love others as Christ commands. We can't love those only who we feel agree with our way of thinking, what does that profit us?



I apologize for the lack of clarity and undue harm it may have caused (we already have a sensitive enough discussion).

I was simply responding to the implication in your post that I was not part of a local fellowship because I did not do Sunday/Wed/pot lucks, etc... and therefore did not love as Christ commands. It was not meant tor eflect on what you DO do, rather on what I DONT do. I hope that makes sense.

In Christ - Jim



Agreed! Got it,thanks. :-)

 2007/8/2 22:29Profile









 Re:

Everyone should seek to give to good ground, but even if one make a mistake and give to an organization such as we have seen in the past that abuses the funds. The giver has accomplished that which has been placed in his/her/heart and the giver has just as creditable given the gift from the heart. The local church in my opinion and also what I interpret to be a biblical opinion is best place to give and have an accountabity of the contributions and expenditure report, so that the giver can verify where the gifts go, to good ground and to know for what purposes the gifts went. To give to an organization to where there is no verifible report to it's members would be as compared to buying a goat in a sack and not a wise decision.

 2007/8/2 22:39









 Re: How much Commitment?

Someone used the illustration of marriage, re our relationship with the local church, but marriage involves "forsaking all others, as long as ye both shall live" ( as the old form of marriage service puts it). Only [i][b]Christ[/b][/i] has the right to demand that level of commitment!

It's true that we need fellowship, and the best way to get that if possible is to be part of a local church.

But, as I said earlier on this thread, the days are coming when that probably won't be possible, and we need to be ready for that, and let the Lord prepare us; and to teach us to "walk on water" with Him - even alone if necessary - which it might be when persecution becomes intense.

It was rather scary when I left the Presbyterian Church, because suddenly I was "of no fixed abode" (as they say of vagrants and suchlike). I was never one for clinging to a denominational label, but still felt very insecure without one. (Like a tin of beans that had nothing on it to show it was of beans, not peaches! :lol: )

It quickly became clear that THE LORD was calling me out, just as clearly as He had called me [i]into[/i] the Presbyterian Church. The scriptures given were Hebrews 13:11-14 and Song of Solomon 2:13.

Hebrews 13:11-14
[i] [color=000066] 11 For the bodies of those animals, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned outside the camp. 12 Therefore Jesus also, that He might sanctify the people with His own blood, suffered outside the gate. 13 Therefore let us go forth to Him, outside the camp, bearing His reproach. 14 For here we have no continuing city, but we seek the one to come.[/color][/i]

Songs 2:13
[color=000066] …Rise up, my love, my fair one,
And come away![/color]

I realised that this was, in a sense, my true calling, far more than the original call to the Presbyterian Church.

But, as I said, this doesn't mean church-hopping or isolation. I'm more aware of the "communion of saints" now than ever before.

Blessings to all. I'm blessed too, because there are those on this thread who are willing to listen to each other and work through misunderstandings, instead of quarreling over different views.

I can only speak from the perspective of the Lord's dealings in my life, which hopefully may be of some help and encouragement to others.

Thank you

Jeannette

 2007/8/3 8:42
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

Quote:
Response:New Teastament Jesus speaking:
Luke 11:42
42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
KJV

brother please keep this in context. who was jesus talking to?? why did he say this in luke and also in matt 23 that they should tithe?? what did they tithe in these verses?? Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders of the day and he told them this because they were still under the law. they still had the all the OT law to obey. this law was not given to the gentiles.
Quote:
2 Cor 9:7-8
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:
KJV

a good verse, but please keep it in context friend. why were they taking up an offering? because paul was taking up an offering to help the church that was without (like 1 cor 16, paul took an offering to the church at jerusalem because they were going through a famine). this offering in 2 cor 8 & 9 was like that, to help other saints who were hurting.. this doesn't show that we should tithe..far from it, in fact "give as he has purposed in his own heart" (the amount is a personal conviction between them and the Lord).

brother moe-mac, giving is a matter of the heart. to say anything else is to make a law where the Lord intended us to walk in His grace. we should as believers give. we will be held responsible for what we did with what the Lord gave us. but let us not make laws about to whom we have to give it to and how much we better give. that is the Holy Spirit's job..we should be anxious to give and let the Lord lead us as He wills (to whom and the amount). thanks moe-mac for the conversation.

 2007/8/3 8:53Profile









 Re:

Lovehim wrote
brother please keep this in context. who was jesus talking to?? why did he say this in luke and also in matt 23 that they should tithe?? what did they tithe in these verses?? Jesus was speaking to the religious leaders of the day and he told them this because they were still under the law. they still had the all the OT law to obey. this law was not given to the gentiles.

response:
You are correct, we are not under the law but under grace and Jesus was talking to the pharisees and to all that read his word today and to reveal to us what is truth. Paul was talking to the gentile here.Rom 2:14
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
KJV


What we give, we give from our heart as you said. Jesus looks at the heart and the motive behind why we do what we do and why we do it. The question is where is my heart. Do we have a big God. How big is he. What if I say I have a big God but I can't give to much because he may be able to provide my families needs or that I have the mindset that he is able to save my soul supernaturaly and take me to heaven but I must retain a certain % of my income to survive because he is not big enough to meet my needs and bring about circumstances that provide my needs. Notice I did not say wants. I think it is our wants that keep us from given freely. Sister, if I have anger in heart, and I do not, because you do not agree with me, then I have been defeated and you the same in the same respect. I respect your opinion and you gave it very graciously which is something I am not very good at. I wasn't blessed with that gift to a large extent. It is not a matter of the amount that one gives, remember the widows mite. It is really more about what he retains and why he retains it, that reveals where his/her trust in the Lord lies. I have tried it both ways and I can tell you from 5 years of given, God has supplied my needs and to a greater abundance on 90% than retaining a 100% of my income. Now, I don't believe in the prosperity gospel preaching. If one is to give in expecting God to make them rich then they have the wrong motive and have gotten off track. If I were to give, expecting to win the lottery or great material gain or preach or say anything simular if would not be scriptural. Thank you for your reply. God Bless.

 2007/8/3 10:36
LoveHim
Member



Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

 Re:

brother moe-mac (i believe you are a brother..i hope because i've been calling you that), what you said was great. it truly is a matter of the heart. we should give to help others and be a blessing to some who are less fortunate. we should give and trust God to supply for us. we both agree wholeheartedly with that.

i come from a church that preaches if you don't tithe, then your fiances are cursed and you can't won't be able to receive from God. i totally disagree with that and i guess that is why i don't want to see believers put under law by other believers. it reminds me so much of paul with the galatians and judaizers, ya know?? anyways, thanks for talking with me about this and let us both press on to know Him more.. love you man.

 2007/8/3 10:52Profile





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