How do you see the Church, and your relationship with it? (2)

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"Beware of any man who claims to be wiser than the apostles or holier than the martyrs of the Early Church." - A.W. Tozer

Discussion Forum : General Topics : How do you see the Church, and your relationship with it?

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reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764

Re: How do you see the Church, and your relationship with it?

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
.

[u][b]My personal experience[/b][/u]:
In the early 1980's I became involved in a small prayer group of those from different denominational backgrounds. The Lord brought each of us out of the denomination we were in. Among other things, the Lord gave us such a vision of what the Church that we were spiritually "moved", and this led to a physical move.

Then one prayed "Lord, what do we do now? Where do we go?" and the answer came, "[b]Go wherever God's people gather[/b]".

So the vision didn't cause isolation, but freedom to fellowship wherever He sent us.

That doesn't mean "church-hopping" but remaining in that [i]spiritual[/i] place with the Lord where He has put me, and to the physical place where He sends.

I have since met others in the same place spiritually, and fellowship with them is richer than with any in the local church where the Lord has me.

In Him

Jeannette

We must never go on feelings, God does not give new revelation that is contrary to HIS word. Christ died for the church, EPh.5:27 says that he wants to present her a holy and blameless.

We know that we should not forsake the assembly with others. Meeting in a house to have fellowship is great, but that would be more like a bible study or just fellowship. It should not replace coming together in a local assembly to equip one another, to serve, to be a blessing to to others. Understand we can do those things with others privately.

I don't agree with not going to church and staying home. Its not biblical and foundational. The church doesn't save us, and we can't isolate ourselves from the church.

But that is my view, not a popular one on SI.

In CHirst

REformer

2007/8/1 11:19

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Re:

Quote:

We know that we should not forsake the assembly with others. Meeting in a house to have fellowship is great, but that would be more like a bible study or just fellowship. It should not replace coming together in a local assembly to equip one another, to serve, to be a blessing to to others. Understand we can do those things with others privately.

Reformer, in all love, from your posts I believe your concept of church is tainted by babylon. Can you give any scriptural evidence for what you have just written or are you merely relying on the empty way of life handed down through american generations and have trusted in it as being "church".

For instance, i write in humility and brokeness. here is a typical conversation with my false convert in-laws who "go to church" as you call it religously.

THEM: What did you do this weekend

ME: We hung out with 7 brothers and sisters Friday night for a prayer meeting and communion. Then on Saturday night we went to feed, pray with, preach to and have an open bible study with the homless, gangs and crack addicts in the ghettos of inner city Detroit until 3 in the morning. Then we slept in Sunday, woke up at 11 to sit outside drink some coffee, read some scripture, and sing some hymns.

THEM: Oh, so you DIDNT "Go to church" this weekend

ME: UM, I have no idea what you are talking about

THEM: How are you getting fed, why are you forsaking fellowship, why dont you "go to church"

ME: Because the Lord delivered us out of the babylonian system that you call "church" when i was personally revived. We no longer go to "church". We are the Church, 24/7 and the glorious freedom of the fellowship of the saints is just a small taste of the goodness God has poured out in us through His Spirit and in His mercy.

THEM: But you didnt go to "church", how did you get fed?

ME: Through the true preachers of the word like David Wilkerson, Paul Washer, and leonard Ravenhill... and personally through the Holy Spirit speaking through the saints I fellowship with.

THEM: but you're all just normal people, you dont have cemetary (I mean seminary) degrees. You are not qualified to minister to each other or to the homless.

ME: I tell you the truth, the tax collecters and prostitutes are entering into the kingdom of heaven before you :( I will pray for you.

I hope this clears up where I am coming from.

In Christ - Jim

2007/8/1 11:33

Re:

Quote:

We know that we should not forsake the assembly with others. Meeting in a house to have fellowship is great, but that would be more like a bible study or just fellowship. It should not replace coming together in a local assembly to equip one another, to serve, to be a blessing to to others.

Local assemblies in the scriptures met in homes. I can't find in scriptures and example where believers went to a building...sang a few songs and listened to someone preach for an hour and then went home. Can you?

2007/8/1 11:35

reformer
Member

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764

Re:

Quote:

jimdied2sin wrote:
Quote:
We know that we should not forsake the assembly with others. Meeting in a house to have fellowship is great, but that would be more like a bible study or just fellowship. It should not replace coming together in a local assembly to equip one another, to serve, to be a blessing to to others. Understand we can do those things with others privately.

Reformer, in all love, from your posts I believe your concept of church is tainted by babylon. Can you give any scriptural evidence for what you have just written or are you merely relying on the empty way of life handed down through american generations and have trusted in it as being "church".

For instance, i write in humility and brokeness. here is a typical conversation with my false convert in-laws who "go to church" as you call it religously.

THEM: What did you do this weekend

ME: We hung out with 7 brothers and sisters Friday night for a prayer meeting and communion. Then on Saturday night we went to feed, pray with, preach to and have an open bible study with the homless, gangs and crack addicts in the ghettos of inner city Detroit until 3 in the morning. Then we slept in Sunday, woke up at 11 to sit outside drink some coffee, read some scripture, and sing some hymns.

THEM: Oh, so you DIDNT "Go to church" this weekend

ME: UM, I have no idea what you are talking about

THEM: How are you getting fed, why are you forsaking fellowship, why dont you "go to church"

ME: Because the Lord delivered us out of the babylonian system that you call "church" when i was personally revived. We no longer go to "church". We are the Church, 24/7 and the glorious freedom of the fellowship of the saints is just a small taste of the goodness God has poured out in us through His Spirit and in His mercy.

THEM: But you didnt go to "church", how did you get fed?

ME: Through the true preachers of the word like David Wilkerson, Paul Washer, and leonard Ravenhill... and personally through the Holy Spirit speaking through the saints I fellowship with.

THEM: but you're all just normal people, you dont have cemetary (I mean seminary) degrees. You are not qualified to minister to each other or to the homless.

ME: I tell you the truth, the tax collecters and prostitutes are entering into the kingdom of heaven before you :( I will pray for you.

I hope this clears up where I am coming from.

In Christ - Jim

G1577
ek-klay-see'-ah

From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both):assembly, church. Heb. 2:12

G4864
From (the reduplicated form of) G4863; an assemblage of persons; specifically a Jewish synagogue (the meeting or the place); by analogy a Christian church:assembly, congregation, synagogue.

James 5:14

Eph. 3:21 to Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and
ever. Amen.

Eph. 5:23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.

Eph. 5:24Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Eph.5:25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself
for her,

Heb. 12:23 to the general assembly and the church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at HOME; for it is shameful for women to speak IN CHURCH(is the home and church two different places)

I agree that the church is not a building but it is a body of believers. You can't compare your in laws with everyone else. It is unfortunate that people do have a misconception of CHURCH. But, where I disagree with you is your reasoning behind in not going to a local assembly or "building".

David wilkersons church:Times Square Church
In 1986, after walking down 42nd Street in Manhattan at midnight, crying out for God to raise up a ministry in Times Square, Reverend Wilkerson sensed the Lord speaking to his heart: "You start a church. You know the city and you love it." At that moment Times Square Church was birthed in his heart, and the church opened its doors in October 1987. The church has a congregation of nearly 8,000 from over 100 nationalities, and is a virtual microcosm of New York City's inhabitants, in which doctors, entertainers, the homeless, teachers, the poor, attorneys, ex-convicts, Wall Street brokers, former drug pushers and addicts, CEO's, actors and students, to name a few, worship together under one roof. www.timessquarechurch.org

Paul Washer is part of First baptist Church of Muscle Shoals. pastor is Jeff Noblit

Leanord Ravenhill sat under went to one of cementaries(semenaries) at Cliff College sat under the ministry of Samuel Chadwick, who was a pastor of a large congregation.

I don't believe these men will ever tell someone to leave a local fellowship, just because they feel it is part of the babylon system. These men you mentioned have been equipping and feeding saints for many years. The have done more the cause of Christ than you and I could hope for. Could you imagine them just meeting with a few in a house of where ever they felt like?

Our church goes out and evangeliZes, feeds the poor, goes to nursing homes. gives time and finances to support ministries and missionaries. We help people in our church who can't pay their bills. ACts 4:32, 34-37 My wife and I gave away our car to a single mom with 3 kids, who couldn't afford to buy one, she didn't know who it is from, but God placed it on our heart. Thats one of the many benefits that come from being part of a local fellowship. To love others as Christ commands. We can't love those only who we feel agree with our way of thinking, what does that profit us?

James 1:1 To the twelve tribes who are dispersed abroad:Greatings

why were they dispersed? persecution!! They were scattered and had only to meet in houses and other types of locations. They were afraid. But don't you think that if they could they would meet in a local fellowship? Can you imagine how large some places where to hold the brethren just to read the letters(Epistles)

REad james 2. If they didn't meet in a assembly why would james be concerned about showing partiality?

When people leave church because they feel it is a whore or it is a babylon system, they are decieved, because when you say that or anyone else they are talking about the church(believers) Christ died for. 1 John 3:10 "By yhis children of GOD and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness in not of GOd, nor the one who does not love his brother." Loving your brother is not those just in your proximity, but all of them. ( I know I touched on this already)

1 Cor.12:4-31
There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all. 7But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by £the same Spirit, 10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. 11But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.

12For as the body is one and has many members, but all the members of that one body, being many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink £into one Spirit. 14For in fact the body is not one member but many.

15If the foot should say, Because I am not a hand, I am not of the body, is it therefore not of the body? 16And if the ear should say, Because I am not an eye, I am not of the body, is it therefore not of the body? 17If the whole body were an eye, where would be the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where would be the smelling? 18But now God has set the members, each one of them, in the body just as He pleased. 19And if they were all one member, where would the body be?

20But now indeed there are many members, yet one body. 21And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of you; nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22No, much rather, those members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary. 23And those members of the body which we think to be less honorable, on these we bestow greater honor; and our unpresentable parts have greater modesty, 24but our presentable parts have no need. But God composed the body, having given greater honor to that part which lacks it, 25that there should be no schism in the body, but that the members should have the same care for one another. 26And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; or if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually. 28And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31But earnestly desire the £best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.

In summary: I understand that we are the body of believers. It is not a church that saves, but only the Blood of Jesus Christ. If the church is such an abomination, then all these spiritual hero's on SI, went to a local fellowhship a building whatever, I can bet they did not endorse leaving and starting somekind of group that gets together, just because the early church did.

oaky I am done. I hope my dribble makes sense
In Him and a proud church member,
Reformer

2007/8/1 16:03

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reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764

Re:

Quote:

sscott wrote:
Quote:
We know that we should not forsake the assembly with others. Meeting in a house to have fellowship is great, but that would be more like a bible study or just fellowship. It should not replace coming together in a local assembly to equip one another, to serve, to be a blessing to to others.

Local assemblies in the scriptures met in homes. I can't find in scriptures and example where believers went to a building...sang a few songs and listened to someone preach for an hour and then went home. Can you?

Brother read my reply above, i can't type that much more.

I am actually tired of hearing that they met in houses! Your right they did, maybe for many reasons we can only speculate. If your going to take that so literal, you need to take everything inscripture literal.We should walk every where, we should pluck on eyes out and cut off our hand if they cause us to sin. Woman should not speak. Lets sell everything.

Where should people send their offerings and tithes, givings too? you all can send it to me if you want?LOL Or is that unbiblical because that is churchy? I know I just opened a can of worms!

REformer

In

2007/8/1 16:13

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reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764

Re:

sscott wrote:sang a few songs and listened to someone preach for an hour and then went home. Can you?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

eph 5:19 speaking to one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord,

Col. 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom, teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

REv 15:3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:

Great and marvelous are Your works,
(this is a scene from Heaven)

Heb.2:12 saying:

I will declare Your name to My brethren;

In the midst of the assembly I will sing praise to You.

James 5:13 Is anyone among you suffering? Let him pray. Is anyone cheerful? Let him sing psalms.

Acts 16:25 But at midnight Paul and Silas were praying and singing hymns to God, and the prisoners were listening to them.

2007/8/1 16:20

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LoveHim
Member

Joined: 2007/6/14
Posts: 562
Indiana, US

Re:

dear reformer,

i appreciate that you are so passionate about church going. i see that you desire that a believer not set himself in isolation because he doesn't want to go to church. that being said, brother how can you define church as His body and then go on using the scriptures and take them to mean a physical place. if the heavens can't contain Him, do you think a physical building does?? no scripture is very clear that He makes His abode within us. brother we are the body, and anytime we meet with other members of His body we should be loving, edifying, encouraging and correcting. it should not matter if it is in a home, building, or cave. the question is not where we should meet, but what should be happening when we are meeting.

brother, scripture does not allow you to tell someone that they are wrong for meeting in any place other than a building, it does not afford you that luxury. i will never tell someone that because they attend a building, they are wrong. i will simply ask "is this fellowship a place where brothers and sisters are fulfilling the call to love God and love others"? are they hungering and thirsting to help one another grow in His image? are they being a light to the lost? these to me are of more importance than the physical location..

Quote:

And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at HOME; for it is shameful for women to speak IN CHURCH(is the home and church two different places)

it would be 2 different places for the believers who leave their house and go to another house..

Quote:

If the church is such an abomination, then all these spiritual hero's on SI, went to a local fellowhship a building whatever, I can bet they did not endorse leaving and starting somekind of group that gets together, just because the early church did.

i bet they were trying to get people to quit doing church and start being the church. brother, that can and should happen everywhere we go..

Quote:

In Him and a proud church member,

me too. we should all be so grateful to be a part of His body. He is so amazing..

like i said above, a believer should never forsake assembling together with other believers, but when we start telling others that our "kind" of fellowship is the only way, we will start to cause unnecessary problems and feuds, know what i mean?? anyways, love you man and i hope that the Lord may use something here to bless you. :-)

2007/8/1 17:05

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LiveforGod
Member

Joined: 2007/4/17
Posts: 299

Re:

Brother Phil you hit the nail on the head. Now I don't have to say anything else(even tough the article I posted here explaines it all). God Bless you Brother.

_________________
Samuel

2007/8/1 17:18

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reformer
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Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764

Re:

Quote:

LiveforGod wrote:
Brother Phil you hit the nail on the head. Now I don't have to say anything else(even tough the article I posted here explaines it all). God Bless you Brother.

Your article you posted from what I can gather does not forbid the church building; unless I missed it? Understanding that the author is offering gleanings from several verses of scripture. neither denying the building or promoting a building.

Personally I don't think alot of my post was read, because I thought some valid points of attending a local assembly has many blessings and to be a blessing.

I still am confused about the view of a church. I guess all I can say is that the people I attend with at "church" we meet in a nice building. It is a place to meet. I guess I am viewing your opinions that having a "denominational" building is wrong. That some how is unbiblical? That because they meant in homes, thats what we should do.

I would be interested in hearing what you think, not what an article says?

Reformer

2007/8/1 17:44

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reformer
Member

Joined: 2007/6/25
Posts: 764

Re:

Quote:

LoveHim wrote:
dear reformer,

if the heavens can't contain Him, do you think a physical building does?? no scripture is very clear that He makes His abode within us.
Quote:

I agree there is nothing to contain HIm. No house or building or cave.

brother we are the body, and anytime we meet with other members of His body we should be loving, edifying, encouraging and correcting. it should not matter if it is in a home, building, or cave. the question is not where we should meet, but what should be happening when we are meeting.

I agree that it doesn't matter where you meet, but as long as it is not because of bitterness of the "church system". You do have to admit that people will fosake the church because of bitterness and choose to stay home and watch it on TV.

brother, scripture does not allow you to tell someone that they are wrong for meeting in any place other than a building,

I never said scripture says thats wrong.

it does not afford you that luxury. i will never tell someone that because they attend a building,

many on SI do feel that it is ok! Only houses.

Quote:
And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at HOME; for it is shameful for women to speak IN CHURCH(is the home and church two different places)
it would be 2 different places for the believers who leave their house and go to another house..
Quote:
If the church is such an abomination, then all these spiritual hero's on SI, went to a local fellowhship a building whatever, I can bet they did not endorse leaving and starting somekind of group that gets together, just because the early church did.
i bet they were trying to get people to quit doing church and start being the church. brother, that can and should happen everywhere we go..
Quote:
In Him and a proud church member,
me too. we should all be so grateful to be a part of His body. He is so amazing..

proud to be part of the body and it just so happens that we meet in a building.

Brother I get what you are saying, I hope you are understanding where I am coming from. The most important thing we can do is Love the Lord, grow in the knowledge of His splendor, and share the good news.

Thanks for listening Phil

God bless you
Mike

2007/8/1 18:05

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