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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Was the death of Christ necessary?

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HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

Hey Ormly,

You're a very interesting fellow. :-)
I would like to ask you, do you mean by "the way of the cross", self-sacrifice in love? No greater love was it that Christ died for us (pure selflessness) and we keep ourselves from indulging the flesh for the love of Christ. Do you mean to say that this was before the fall? That God was asking Adam and Eve to show love for Him by withholding eating the fruit?
That's certainly a very intriguing idea if that's what you mean....


_________________
Melanie

 2007/7/29 22:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

HopePurifies wrote:
Hey Ormly,

You're a very interesting fellow. :-)
I would like to ask you, do you mean by "the way of the cross", self-sacrifice in love? No greater love was it that Christ died for us (pure selflessness) and we keep ourselves from indulging the flesh for the love of Christ. Do you mean to say that this was before the fall? That God was asking Adam and Eve to show love for Him by withholding eating the fruit?
That's certainly a very intriguing idea if that's what you mean....



Indeed! That is exactly what I mean. God gave Adam dominion over everything except himself. God wanted Adam to willingly give up his right to himself .... give it back to God and when God saw that in Adam, He would then have placed His divinity in Adam much like He is now able to do to us because of Jesus. We call it, the new birth. It is indeed a new beginning whereby we can do what Adam failed to do. We have more than what Adam had inasmuch as we can have a explanation for it all. We have reasons to do so Adam was never given. We have, because of the Life of Christ within us a Divinity he never had, to aid us in overcoming the solicitations of our enemy. We can now view the wilderness experience of Jesus as our life might be for us.

That's in capsule form for now. Please ponder it and read of redemption in that light. Let it speak to what it means about Jesus being the second Adam that God purposes can now still be accomplished in bringing about a vast family of sons. Begin to see that the "WORK of the Cross" [redemption] gives us all the possibility of that new start to divinity. A grooming for it, if you will. Read John 3 in that light.

I'm outta here for a few days. Gotta have surgery this morning that will keep me out o circulation. I covet all your prayers. Thanks you.

:-Drm



The opened sight

[i]To open their eyes, . . . . that they may receive[/i] . . . Acts 26:18.

This verse is the grandest condensation of the propaganda of a disciple of Jesus Christ in the whole of the New Testament.

The first sovereign work of grace is summed up in the words— “that they may receive remission of sins.” When a man fails in personal Christian experience, it is nearly always because he has never received anything. The only sign that a man is saved is that he has received something from Jesus Christ. Our part as workers for God is to open men’s eyes that they may turn themselves from darkness to light; but that is not salvation, that is conversion—the effort of a roused human being. I do not think it is too sweeping to say that the majority of nominal Christians are of this order; their eyes are opened, but they have received nothing.

Conversion is not regeneration. This is one of the neglected factors in our preaching today. When a man is born again, he knows that it is because he has received something as a gift from Almighty God and not because of his own decision. People register their vows, and sign their pledges, and determine to go through, but none of this is salvation. Salvation means that we are brought to the place where we are able to receive something from God on the authority of Jesus Christ, viz., remission of sins.

Then there follows the second mighty work of grace—“and inheritance among them which are sanctified.” In sanctification the regenerated soul deliberately gives up his right to himself to Jesus Christ, and identifies himself entirely with God’s interest in other men.

Chambers, Oswald: My Utmost for His Highest : Selections for the Year. Grand Rapids, MI : Discovery House Publishers, 1993, c1935, S. January 10

 2007/7/30 5:18
whyme
Member



Joined: 2007/4/3
Posts: 293


 Re:

Ormly,

not to turn things upside down but is it possible the fall was allowed so that Jesus could give His life to demonstrate God's infinite love, even for the sinner? Your original question presupposes I think that man is the end all of God's redemptive plan. Romans 8:30 says that God's purpose is to have Jesus the firstborn among many brethern but God's ultimate purpose is to make manifest and display His glory and His son's sacrificial love for His rebellious enemies is the greatest manifestation of His love and glory. I prefer to think that man revolves around the Son and not vice versa.

 2007/7/30 8:11Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7472
Mississippi

 Re:

Ormly wrote:

Quote:
I'm outta here for a few days. Gotta have surgery this morning that will keep me out o circulation. I covet all your prayers.



Orm, I thought at first you were saying there is a possibility you might kick the bucket! (Now won't this expression drive the yanks crazy!! :-P )

Quote:
We have, because of the Life of Christ within us a Divinity he never had, to aid us in overcoming the solicitations of our enemy.



Orm, this phrase bothers me - it does not sound right. It is as though we are now a god on par with the Almighty. Or, even if we would be a lesser god, if you want to use that term, this concept, using this language is not found in the NT that I am aware of.

It is true we are called to have dominion over sin and temptation, but we have little control over the afflictions sent our way: the only control we have is our responce to it. And such is much of life. Since this is the case I do not see humans as having any potential of being even a 'lesser god'.

Having said all this I do know the serpent in the garden told Eve they will be as god knowing good and evil. This statement implies that the discernment of right vs wrong is godlike. I will suggest our fallen human nature finds this discernment severly flawed, at best. Even though we may be redeemed, have the Spirit to enlighten us, we still have to battle the old man and will continue to do so until death.

What say? Did I misunderstand or are we saying the same thing using different words to say it?

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/7/30 9:00Profile
HopePurifies
Member



Joined: 2007/4/12
Posts: 181
Georgia, USA

 Re:

I hope your surgery goes well.
I think the key to understanding what Ormly has said of course, is to read the excerpt he posted from Oswald Chambers.
God would have given Adam and Eve His Holy Spirit within had they cleared the way by obeying God and denying themselves the fruit.
I probably wouldn't have used the word Divinity as it raises eyebrows, but I don't think we can say that it is completely wrong to use such terminology. When we receive the Holy Spirit within us, we have God inside, and when He works through us, God is working. Receive Divinity = receive the Holy Spirit.
I think Ormly has something here. I tread lightly because I've never heard of this before, but then again, I never heard I could overcome sin in the first 3 years of my profession of faith either.


_________________
Melanie

 2007/7/30 13:12Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: reply

Reply
I pray this will help,

Jesus (Master)The only rightous one opens The Book, and sows the good seed (words of God)in our hearts(the good ground)if you are saved..

The bad seed are sown by the spirit of antichrist the flesh mind acting like Jesus pretending to be God decideing good and evil.
Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/7/30 18:17Profile









 Re:

Quote:

ginnyrose wrote:
Ormly wrote:
Quote:
I'm outta here for a few days. Gotta have surgery this morning that will keep me out o circulation. I covet all your prayers.



Orm, I thought at first you were saying there is a possibility you might kick the bucket! (Now won't this expression drive the yanks crazy!! :-P )

Quote:
We have, because of the Life of Christ within us a Divinity he never had, to aid us in overcoming the solicitations of our enemy.



Orm, this phrase bothers me - it does not sound right. It is as though we are now a god on par with the Almighty. Or, even if we would be a lesser god, if you want to use that term, this concept, using this language is not found in the NT that I am aware of.

ginnyrose



The "Divinty" of Christ we possess, though equal to the Father, isn't to say we are perfect as He was, we still have our old nature to deal with. We are not divine by nature however, His divine Nature, given upon the new birth is that we may be perfected; we may be victorious in overcoming our "self" nature. It is the "way of the Cross". It can be said we are being groomed for divinity, jointheir-ship with Jesus Christ. :-D

 2007/8/1 23:12
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Divinity

Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:
I'm outta here for a few days. Gotta have surgery this morning that will keep me out o circulation. I covet all your prayers.



The "Divinty" of Christ we possess, though equal to the Father, isn't to say we are perfect as He was, we still have our old nature to deal with. We are not divine by nature however, His divine Nature, given upon the new birth is that we may be perfected; we may be victorious in overcoming our "self" nature. It is the "way of the Cross". It can be said we are being groomed for divinity, jointheir-ship with Jesus Christ. :-D



Orm, did you steal a computer from the nurses station, or did you sneek one in with your pajamas?

The divinity that is ahead of us in our joint heirship with Jesus...Jesus spoke of it Himself in John 10:34-36.

[color=993300]Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, "You are gods'' '?
"If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
"do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?[/color]

But obviously, He is going to have a lot of god's running around, being trained for His use. My question would be are we eventually to actually be divine in some manner, that we are considered as gods, joint heir to all the Glory due Him?

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/8/2 6:54Profile









 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
Quote:

Ormly wrote:
Quote:
I'm outta here for a few days. Gotta have surgery this morning that will keep me out o circulation. I covet all your prayers.



Quote:
The "Divinty" of Christ we possess, though equal to the Father, isn't to say we are perfect as He was, we still have our old nature to deal with. We are not divine by nature however, His divine Nature, given upon the new birth is that we may be perfected; we may be victorious in overcoming our "self" nature. It is the "way of the Cross". It can be said we are being groomed for divinity, joint heir-ship with Jesus Christ. :-D



Permit me to re-write some of this for clarity:

We have a human nature that needs be perfected by the new perfect Nature of the Father, not unlike the very Nature that Jesus possessed that He had to protect by His Human Character. The fact our human nature is imperfect more than suggests a sinful condition. It also suggests a propensity towards individualism, Adam's failure, the doing of a thing from desire to please/satisfy one's 'self'. While the penalty for our sinful nature has been removed in order that the perfectness of the Father can be advanced by the Life of His sinless Son, our propensity to please our 'self' remains and will remain so long as we are devoid of the revelation of Jesus Christ. This is of the "new birth" Father gives us, the revelation of the intention of Himself summed up in Jesus. One might at this point ask, 'even with this revelation, how come I still have a desire to my own thing?' That's easy. We haven't learned to realize what temptation[s] is meant to do IN us. Keep in mind it is NOT God who brings on the test but Satan who desires us to fail in our "new birth" life. He desires to get at the Life of Christ in us and it is our responsibility to protect IT. In this is our allegiance to the Father revealed, Who is able to save us by the very love-allegiance shown Him. It is from us and through us; our expression of the Father, that deliverance comes. This is a learning process to be sure. We are to learn obedience by the things we suffer [passion]. The suffering having to do mostly with overcoming that part of our sinful nature not yet willing to die; not yet willing to embrace the ‘way of the Cross’. When this "death in us" is fully realized, the "way of the Cross", then will our JOY be made complete.

Even Jesus had to overcome His human nature. Though it was sinless it was not without the capability of desiring its own way. He was hungry. He was thirsty. He was tired and weary. ---- He revealed His allegiance! Had the Devil succeeded in his solicitations we wouldn't be here having these conversations. Praise God, but for the JOY [b]set before Him[/b] as we may now enjoy, He overcame His ‘human-ness'. He delighted in the 'way of the Cross' as well as the pain of the 'work of the Cross' because He knew it would enable us to enter into the very same union with the Father as He enjoyed if we could understand! He delighted because He saw the end of it all; our coming into Glory that the Father longed for! Make no mistake here. It was for the PLEASURE/JOY of the Father Jesus did this. The JOY of the Father being to bring into actuality a vast family of Sons with Jesus Christ as the Head. The vision of this is of the utmost importance if we are to get beyond the idea that redemption is all Jesus and the 'work of the cross' was about.

Quote:
Orm, did you steal a computer from the nurses station, or did you sneek one in with your pajamas?



LOL!! I thought about it but also knew I wouldn't be in very good shape to desire anything other than sleep. I was partly right. I was operated on Mon am and released Wed am. All went well. I am home and again at my desk. Aside from taking it easy when standing up and walking slowing [the incision HURTS] I am in great shape, Praise God! Gotta lay around a few weeks and go back to have a few tubes removed and then time will bring about the return of normal operations. It's a man thing that will one day be no longer a problem.

Quote:
The divinity that is ahead of us in our joint heirship with Jesus...Jesus spoke of it Himself in John 10:34-36.



YES! And are we not to be groomed for it now?

Quote:
[color=993300]Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, "You are gods'' '?
"If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
"do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?[/color]



Quote:
But obviously, He is going to have a lot of god's running around, being trained for His use. My question would be are we eventually to actually be divine in some manner, that we are considered as gods, joint heir to all the Glory due Him?



Never in this unglorified life. Only is it for now that the grooming process is necessary, the learning of the Character of the Father. When we see Him we will be glorified like Him for we shall KNOW Him as He is.


Blessing to you My Sister ---trusting you are well also.


 2007/8/2 10:18
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: What did you say???

Ormly wrote:

Quote:
I'm outta here for a few days. Gotta have surgery this morning that will keep me out o circulation. I covet all your prayers.



Quote:
The "Divinity" of Christ we possess, though equal to the Father, isn't to say we are perfect as He was, we still have our old nature to deal with. We are not divine by nature however, His divine Nature, given upon the new birth is that we may be perfected; we may be victorious in overcoming our "self" nature. It is the "way of the Cross". It can be said we are being groomed for divinity, joint heir-ship with Jesus Christ. :-D



Forrest

Permit me to re-write some of this for clarity:

We have a human nature that needs be perfected by the new perfect Nature of the Father, not unlike the very Nature that Jesus possessed that He had to protect by His Human Character. The fact our human nature is imperfect more than suggests a sinful condition. It also suggests a propensity towards individualism, Adam's failure, the doing of a thing from desire to please/satisfy one's 'self'. While the penalty for our sinful nature has been removed in order that the perfectness of the Father can be advanced by the Life of His sinless Son, our propensity to please our 'self' remains and will remain so long as we are devoid of the revelation of Jesus Christ. This is of the "new birth" Father gives us, the revelation of the intention of Himself summed up in Jesus. One might at this point ask, 'even with this revelation, how come I still have a desire to my own thing?' That's easy. We haven't learned to realize what temptation[s] is meant to do IN us. Keep in mind it is NOT God who brings on the test but Satan who desires us to fail in our "new birth" life. He desires to get at the Life of Christ in us and it is our responsibility to protect IT. In this is our allegiance to the Father revealed, Who is able to save us by the very love-allegiance shown Him. It is from us and through us; our expression of the Father, that deliverance comes. This is a learning process to be sure. We are to learn obedience by the things we suffer [passion]. The suffering having to do mostly with overcoming that part of our sinful nature not yet willing to die; not yet willing to embrace the ‘way of the Cross’. When this "death in us" is fully realized, the "way of the Cross", then will our JOY be made complete.

Even Jesus had to overcome His human nature. Though it was sinless it was not without the capability of desiring its own way. He was hungry. He was thirsty. He was tired and weary. ---- He revealed His allegiance! Had the Devil succeeded in his solicitations we wouldn't be here having these conversations. Praise God, but for the JOY [b]set before Him[/b] as we may now enjoy, He overcame His ‘human-ness'. He delighted in the 'way of the Cross' as well as the pain of the 'work of the Cross' because He knew it would enable us to enter into the very same union with the Father as He enjoyed if we could understand! He delighted because He saw the end of it all; our coming into Glory that the Father longed for! Make no mistake here. It was for the PLEASURE/JOY of the Father Jesus did this. The JOY of the Father being to bring into actuality a vast family of Sons with Jesus Christ as the Head. The vision of this is of the utmost importance if we are to get beyond the idea that redemption is all Jesus and the 'work of the cross' was about.

Quote:
Orm, did you steal a computer from the nurses station, or did you sneek one in with your pajamas?



LOL!! I thought about it but also knew I wouldn't be in very good shape to desire anything other than sleep. I was partly right. I was operated on Mon am and released Wed am. All went well. I am home and again at my desk. Aside from taking it easy when standing up and walking slowing [the incision HURTS] I am in great shape, Praise God! Gotta lay around a few weeks and go back to have a few tubes removed and then time will bring about the return of normal operations. It's a man thing that will one day be no longer a problem.

Quote:
The divinity that is ahead of us in our joint heirship with Jesus...Jesus spoke of it Himself in John 10:34-36.



YES! And are we not to be groomed for it now?

Quote:
[color=993300]Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your law, `I said, "You are gods'' '?
"If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),
"do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, `You are blaspheming,' because I said, `I am the Son of God'?[/color]



Quote:
But obviously, He is going to have a lot of god's running around, being trained for His use. My question would be are we eventually to actually be divine in some manner, that we are considered as gods, joint heir to all the Glory due Him?



Never in this unglorified life. Only is it for now that the grooming process is necessary, the learning of the Character of the Father. When we see Him we will be glorified like Him for we shall KNOW Him as He is.


Blessing to you My Sister ---trusting you are well also.



Quote:
Now that I can actually read what you wrote, I'm fine...Orm, stay off that anesthesia!





_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/8/2 23:20Profile





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