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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : 1 Cor 15:29

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philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

think we can at least agree that no significant doctrine should be built upon this verse alone, as the Mormons had done. This point was already emphasised in my previous post (which seems to be overlooked) - "it is quite clear that such a practice [of baptizing in behalf of the dead] cannot be found in any other historical document in the NT, in early church history, nor in any orthodox Christian community in the centuries that immediately followed; nor are there parallels or precedents in pagan religion (Fee, 764)".

Hi Sam,
For my part it wasn't overlooked but was implicitly agreed as a 'given'. I think I may have said that the only records of proxy baptisms are those caused by misinterpretations of this verse.

So for my part.. agreed, absolutely.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/5/11 10:09Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Philologos says, [i]"So for my part.. agreed, absolutely."[/i] Your point is noted. :)

Quote:
I don't accept the validity of this. For reasons I have stated before but repeat here. I would not put my Greek head-to-head with Gordon Fee if it were not for the fact that my Greek authority is William Wordsworth, one of the greatest Greek scholars of the 19th century.

This is an aside. Can you point me to the actual book of the "Greek authority" that you have mentioned? As far as I know, William Wordsworth was a British poet, not a Greek scholar. He did have a youngest brother by the name of Christopher who appeared to have done some work in New Testament Greek. Anyways, I'm confused as to where to look in the library.

Sam


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Sam

 2004/5/11 10:29Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4792


 Re:

Hi Sam

You wrote:
"I think we can at least agree that no significant doctrine should be built upon this verse alone, as the Mormons had done."

I was unaware of this use of Scripture. I found out that the holocaust Jews are postumulously (sp) being baptized into the mormon religion. The living survivors are trying to stop the mormons from doing this. Thankyou for your thoughts.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/5/11 10:38Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Sam
Call it a 'senior moment'. I meant Christopher Wordsworth of course. He was Bishop of Lincoln. (I think he was nephew to William) I was referring to his 2 volume commentary on the Greek New Testament, published by Rivingtons, London c 1886. It is one of my favourite source books. He was a high church sacrementalist but a great lover of the scripture. He also did the OT in 6 volumes; I have that too.

WORDSWORTH, CHRISTOPHER (1807-1885), English bishop and man of letters, youngest son of Christopher Wordsworth, Master of Trinity, was born in London on the 3oth of October 1807, and was educated at Winchester and Trinity, Cambridge. He, like his brother Charles, was distinguished as an athlete as well as for scholarship. He became senior classic, and was elected a fellow and tutor of Trinity in 1830; shortly afterwards he took holy orders. He went for a tour in Greece in 1832-1833, and published various works on its topography and archaeology, the most famous of which is " Wordsworth's " Greece (1839). In 1836 he became Public Orator at Cambridge, and in the same year was appointed headmaster of Harrow, a post he resigned in 1844. He then became a canon of Westminster, and from 1850 to 1870 he held a country living in Berkshire. In 1865 he was made archdeacon of Westminster, and in 1869 bishop of Lincoln. He died on the 2oth of March 1885. He was a man of fine character, with a high ideal of ecclesiastical duty, and he spent his money generously on church objects. As a scholar he is best known for his edition of the Greek New Testament (1856-1860), and the Old Testament (1864-1870), with commentaries; but his writings were many in number, and included a volume of devotional verse, The Holy Year (1862), Church History up to A.D. 451 (1881-1883), and Memoirs of his uncle the poet (1851), to whom he was literary executor. His Inscriptiones Pompeianae (1837) was an important contribution to epigraphy. He married in 1838 Susanna Hartley Frere (d. 1884), and had a family of seven; the-eldest son was John (b. 1843), bishop of Salisbury (1885), and author of Fragments of Early Latin (1874); the eldest daughter, Elizabeth (b. 1840), was the first principal (1879) of Lady Margaret Hall, Oxford.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/5/11 14:58Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

To Jeff,

Thanks to you likewise for pointing out the facts regarding Holocaust Jews being baptised by Mormons.

The Mormons' unbiblical practice of baptising for the dead also had an unintended contribution to historical research on genealogy. They have the most comprehensive database on North American genealogy. My senior friend was able to trace her family tree hundreds of years back because of this database.

Other than this, there is no spiritual value of eternal significance to this practice. :)



To Philologos,

Thanks for the info on Wordsworth. I really have to work hard on my Greek before I could dig into his writings.

Sam


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Sam

 2004/5/13 13:38Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Hi Sam
To Philologos,

Thanks for the info on Wordsworth. I really have to work hard on my Greek before I could dig into his writings.

Sam
They're not quite as inaccessible as you might think, although if you don't have Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, Latin, High German and French you (and me) will miss some things. :-o He was writing for an audience of Bible scholars who he expected to have such tools in their scolastic skill-set. Those were the days! Have you been able to locate a copy?

Regarding Mormons, they have been populating their database for many years now. I recall that way back in the 50s the Anglican church (in a sleepy parish in the centre of England) I attended as a young teenager had regular requests for information from church baptism and death registers from the Mormons.

For any folk tracing genealogies they have by far the most complete databases in the world. This all stemmed from their practice of tracing their ancestors in order to conduct prox baptisms. Mormons believe in 3 ultimate states, as far as I recall, the top ranking is reserved for practising Mormons, and the third level for all others. However, if you get a Mormon to submit to proxy baptism for someone who is dead, the dead person gets an immediate promotion to the second level. Its a long time since I studied Mormonism, but I think the above is the general shape of their teaching.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/5/14 5:06Profile





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