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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Should heretics (non-calvinists) be burned alive?

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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I am neither Calviinist nor Finneyist; a plague on both their houses. ;-)
Dutiful and grateful followers of Calvin our great Reformer, yet condemning an error which was that of his age, and strongly attached to liberty of conscience, according to the true principles of the Reformation and of the Gospel, we have erected this expiatory monument. October 27th, 1903.
This is a translation of the words on the expiatory memorial erected by Calvinists in 1903 in Geneva. I have visited this memorial and I could have wished it were in a more prominent place than where it is. The Reformers monument on the other hand is enormous and has representations of Geneva's reformers.

However the words of the expiatory memorial deserve our attention. It 'condemns' an 'error which was of his age'. It is always folly to judge the spirit of a different age. The 'past' says the quotation, 'is another country'. Culture and background, unbringing and the peculiar 'spirit of the age' have powerful effects on us all. Only the naive think we can be objective.

I hope I would have been numbered with the Anabaptists in this conflict but who can tell. There is no such thing as uninterpreted history and all the history we have has passed through the prejudices of many a man.

I have no doubt that there are a few rogues who have embraced Finney's theology too, but Calvin's theology must stand on its own feet and not be judged at 500 years distance by actions which seem unbelievable to our day and age.

There were many godly men who supported 'slavery'. Were they wrong? of course they were wrong but there was slavery for hundreds of years before other godly men undermined it and brought in new legislation. Was Calvin wrong in his support of Serverus' death sentence? From where I am sitting, I have no doubt in saying 'yes', but Calvin wasn't sitting where I am sitting, and while I condemn his action I dare not judge his motive.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/7/26 14:16Profile









 Re: Should heretics (non-calvinists) be burned alive?

Quote:
He (Calvin) executed 57 people, and excommunicated 66. He even surpassed Augustine in severe treatment!! Like Augustine, Calvin quotes Lk 14:23 to support and justify persecuting and punishing heretics.



Yes, and David, King of Israel, and one who "was after God's own heart", committed adultery with one of his Generals' wife and then, after she got pregnant by David, he conspired to have the poor man murdered in battle.

Add to this David's grusome payment to Saul for Saul's daughter's hand in marriage: one hundred foreskins from one hundred dead philistines!

Now, if you're attacking Calvin's theology because he was a sinner, you had better stay away from the Psalms, too, as they were written by a man who was an adulterer, a murderer, etc...

And nevermind reading Proverbs, Song of Solomon, or Ecclesiastes, since they were authored by a man who, at his heyday boasted 600 wives and 300 concubines, built heathen temples on the hills to other gods, etc...

Better not read another theologian, let alone any book, ever again - they've all been written by sinners!

 2007/7/26 15:32
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Yes, and David, King of Israel, and one who "was after God's own heart", committed adultery with one of his Generals' wife and then, after she got pregnant by David, he conspired to have the poor man murdered in battle.



Excellent points brother, but the best was this-

Quote:
Better not read another theologian, let alone any book, ever again - they've all been written by sinners!



Thanks for the reminder ;-)


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/26 15:36Profile
JelloTaster
Member



Joined: 2006/11/6
Posts: 44
Winnipeg MB

 Re:

The Psalms also record David's repentance, something history does not record about Calvin on this issue. That's not to say Calvin wasn't saved, but something as blatant as killing another human and not showing repentance is something that must grieve the heart of God. I'm glad I'm not the one to judge him.

In light of this, we must remember to judge others based on their life rather than their doctrine.


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Chris Wiebe

 2007/7/26 16:30Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

But the point is that Calvin did not kill Servetus, regardless.

Now what if I said, "Finney lied on his ordination papers." (Which he did, as he said he agreed to, and would uphold the teachings of the Westminster Confession of Faith)

Now I'm sure the gloves will come off as so many regard this man so highly, but the point is he is a man, not a deity. Though I do not agree at all with his lying, or his doctrine, I will defend his ability to not be perfect(though he would be unwilling to do the same).

All Jesse is doing, is the same thing that Finney did. Finney and his cohorts printed articles and books decrying the horrible Calvinists because they dared to question some of the Oberlin Theology and the methods employed at Finney's meetings.

I highly recommend a book called "Revival and Revivalism" by Iain Murray. It can be found here-

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Revival-Revivalism-Iain-H-Murray/dp/0851516602/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-5171481-4038369?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1185482539&sr=8-1]Revival And Revivalism[/url]


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/26 16:44Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
Corey_H wrote:
Better not read another theologian, let alone any book, ever again - they've all been written by sinners!

Are you talking about Christian authors?
If so, they have not been writen by sinners, but by saints.

 2007/7/26 16:51Profile
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Quote:
If I have a choice before conversion, then I have something to glory. "I chose Christ", but "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", therefore, I am incapable of making any choices unless it was given me by the holy Ghost.



I've never really understood this reasoning. I see the point you are trying to make, but how is saying "I chose Christ" worse than saying "I believe in Christ" or "I have faith in Christ". If we boast by saying "I chose Christ" then we are also boasting by saying "I am saved by Christ" and "I am forgiven by God".

Do you see my point?

Boasting is saying "I deserve to be forgiven. It would be wrong of God not to forgive me." or "My good works will cause me to be forgiven. Because of my good works, God must forgive me."

Here is what I would say, "I do not deserve to be forgiven. I deserve to go to Hell. However, God, through His son Jesus Christ, has graciously extended me an offer of mercy. If I turn from my sins, obey God, and trust in Jesus I will receive forgiveness. Therefore I will turn from my sins, obey God, and trust in Jesus, not to boast in my own obedience and faith, but to receive that which God has graciously extended."

That's the way I see it.

Nile


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/26 16:58Profile









 Re:

Logic asked

Quote:
Are you talking about Christian authors?
If so, they have not been writen by sinners, but by saints.



Perhaps we could compromise? How about, "sinning saints", or "saints that sinned"? Because saints they were, and sin they did.

Even Tozer wasn't fool enough to claim he didn't sin.

JelloTaster said
Quote:
The Psalms also record David's repentance, something history does not record about Calvin on this issue. That's not to say Calvin wasn't saved, but something as blatant as killing another human and not showing repentance is something that must grieve the heart of God. I'm glad I'm not the one to judge him.

In light of this, we must remember to judge others based on their life rather than their doctrine.



I don't recall David grieving over the 100 Philistines he killed... so he could present their foreskins to Saul... (yuck!) ...to marry Saul's daughter.

Look, I'm not trying to slight David. And I'm not defending Calvin.

Look, a sinner might be incredibly insightful and know his theology inside and out - but remain a hypocrite. And a saint might never know what the word "doctrine", "calvinism", or "ecumenical" means, never go out evangelising, and yet love God with his whole being.

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: [i]All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do;[/i] [b]but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.[/b]" (MAT 23:2-3)

 2007/7/26 17:28
deltadom
Member



Joined: 2005/1/6
Posts: 1806
Hemel Hempstead

 Re:

what about John Wesley?


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Dominic Shiells

 2007/7/26 17:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
what about John Wesley?



Huh?

 2007/7/26 17:56





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