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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Should heretics (non-calvinists) be burned alive?

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CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

"Apparently Luther thought that he taught as an Apostle while James taught as a heretic...."

Luther later repented of denouncing James' epistle as an "epistle of straw". Displaying the wisdom of holding onto one's theology as loosely.

I don't know about you Jesse, but over the past 13 years I've had my share of retraction to make. Each one brought me a step closer to truth.


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/7/26 7:44Profile









 Re:

I am THRILLED to hear that Luther recanted of his proposition to burn the Epistle of James! Praise God!!

If he had not died directly after calling for the burning of the jewish synogogues, who knows, maybe he might have recanted that too.

It is unfortinate that Calvin never repented of murdering non-calvinists. To his own death he defended the burning of individuals at the stake as the will and command of God.

Joh 16:2 - You will be expelled from the synagogues, and the time will come when [b]those who kill you will think that by doing this they are serving God. [/b]

 2007/7/26 7:49
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re: Should heretics (non-calvinists) be burned alive?

Quote:
He executed 57 people, and excommunicated 66. He even surpassed Augustine in severe treatment!! Like Augustine, Calvin quotes Lk 14:23 to support and justify persecuting and punishing heretics.



This is some startling information! I'm adding it to my list of things to investigate.

Thanks for sharing,
Matt


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/26 8:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:
He executed 57 people, and excommunicated 66. He even surpassed Augustine in severe treatment!! Like Augustine, Calvin quotes Lk 14:23 to support and justify persecuting and punishing heretics.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


This is some startling information! I'm adding it to my list of things to investigate.



In your investigation, see:

* Samuel Fisk, Calvinistic Paths Retraced, Murfreesboro, TN: Biblical Evangelism Press, 1985, pg 115

* Earle E. Cairns, Christianity Through The Centuries: A History of the Christian Church, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Publishing House, 1981, p. 311

* Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol VIII, Grand Rapids, MI: Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Reprinted 1995, Third Edition, Revided, pp. 492, 493

* Dan Corner, The Believer's Conditional Security, Evangelical Outreach, 2000, p 36

 2007/7/26 8:37
Nile
Member



Joined: 2007/3/28
Posts: 403
Raleigh, NC

 Re:

Aha, thanks! (Maybe I could borrow some of these from you sometime.)
Nile


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Matthew Miskiewicz

 2007/7/26 9:01Profile









 Re:

I think the bible clearly preaches Total Depravity before one is born again. After we have been made free from the law of sin and death, I believe we have the freedom to choose life or to continue in sin.

If I have a choice before conversion, then I have something to glory. "I chose Christ", but "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God", therefore, I am incapable of making any choices unless it was given me by the holy Ghost. For "no man can come to Me except the Spirit draw him".

I have heard also of the teaching that "whomsoever will can come", however, we need to take into consideration other verses to make it complete. The "Whomsoever" is not referring to just anyone, but those who have eyes to see the kingdom of God.

"Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." There needs to be a balance.

Even though the man Calvin may have been a murderer, he was also a scholar. Like Paul, he knew the scriptures, even though he may have damned his own soul.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

 2007/7/26 11:11
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re:

Because no one seems to have mentioned it yet:

[b]Luke 9:51-56[/b]

Quote:

51And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,

52And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.

53And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.

54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

55[b]But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of[/b].

56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.



It doesn't matter how Calvin would answer -Jesus already answered.


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Ian Smith

 2007/7/26 11:41Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Calvinists do not worship John Calvin. John Calvin was a man. He is not the Son of God, he is not God, he is a man.

There are many things about Luther, Calvin, Finney, the Wesley's that I do not agree with.

My hope is built on nothingless than Jesus blood and righteousness. Certainly not on Mr. Calvin.

 2007/7/26 11:59Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

John Calvin actually had horns and a tail too!! And he is responsible for global warming also.

Since when did Calvin have any authority to execute anyone? The Genevan Government is the one who executed such orders.

Michael Servetus had been condemned by Rome, and was hiding in Geneva. The government there ordered his execution not Calvin.

Anyone can spout off some flaw about another and cast doubt about their ideology, the Pharisees did it with Christ. But one cannot deny God's free and sovereign plan in and through History. One cannot deny that God and God alone draws men to His Son, and justifies them without regard to their person.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/7/26 13:30Profile
theopenlife
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 926


 Re:

Jesse, I am somewhat jolted by the level to which you have risen in attacking Calvin's theology, even to attacking the minds of the thousands who have held it.

Do you think Richard Baxter was brainless, or Bunyan a bigot? Was the soul winner Joseph Alleine and imbecile because he, too, held to the doctrines of sovereign grace? Each of these men also came to similar views. Each wept for the lost and preached to their deaths.

Arminians placed Alleine and Bunyan in prison. Alleine died young because of his mistreatment at the hands of "your side". Many Calvinists were executed by Arminians throughout history.

Calvinist and Arminianist theology is not responsible for the wrongful execution of people, mishandling of the scriptures is.

I'm not speaking as a Calvinist - frankly I'm less than a year old in the faith and still learning both vantages - but I am disgusted at least by your editorializing of history. Servetus was no "hero" ... I have read from similar sources that he was a recognized up-set, had been warned not to come to Geneva by Calvin; he was a Pelagian and denied the deity of Christ, denied the trinity altogether, and was in this sense a blasphemer.

The national theological view of the time was that the Old Testament law gave insight for the government of nations. Why do many people even today support the death penalty for murder? Because the Old Testament does. Likewise, the Genevans supported the death penalty for blasphemy, just as the Old Testament did. They viewed their actions as protecting society spiritually, something like us locking up a rapist for life to protect our daughters.

I have read in many sources that they did not level their charges against Servetus for no reason, or even for not being a Calvinist - his crime was actively spreading the heresy that Jesus is not God.

From their perspective, it was a state crime to let such a person live, and they probably expected God to judge them severely if they didn't send him to judgment. It should be noted that Calvin frequently visited Servetus before execution urging him to believe the scriptures and retract.

From the knowledge I have of several non-Calvinist sources, you give a slant of history, Jesse, that leans towards the edge of false witnessing.

So, finally, my point is not to defend Calvin or Calvinism, but to ask for a break on the sensationalist partisan posting. (Oh no, I sound like I'm censuring free speech, just like Calvin!
;-) )

 2007/7/26 14:07Profile





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